Alcohol vs Cigarettes (Full Version)

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Slaveforlife789 -> Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:04:19 AM)

Both Alcohol and Cigarettes cause huge damage to society. They are both addictive substances that technically destroy the body. Yet, the attitude against each substance is different; cigarettes smokers are treated like shit (for the lack of a better term), thrown out of buildings and signs posted on cigarettes boxes to alert people. The outcome is good: cigarettes smoking has dropped in Canada, for example, from around 40% to 18% in the past 30 years. The story of alcohol is a bit different- it is glorified, it is cool, and no one looks down at a drunken person! Yet the destructive effects are very comparable. Below is a text taken from a 2002 report from the Canadian center on Substance Abuse highlighting the social cost of substance abuse in Canada (social costs means net value; any positive-any negatives)”

“Measured in terms of the burden on services such as health care and law enforcement, and the loss of productivity in the workplace or at home resulting from premature death and disability, the overall social cost of substance abuse in Canada in 2002 was estimated to be $39.8 billion. This estimate is broken down into four major categories in Figure 1. This overall estimate represents a cost of $1,267 to every man, woman and child in Canada, as indicated according to substance in Figure 2. Tobacco accounted for about $17 billion or 42.7% of that total estimate, alcohol accounted for about $14.6 billion (36.6%) and illegal drugs for about $8.2 billion (20.7%) (see Table 2).” This is probably the same in most western nations

And the notion that a bit of alcohol is good for you have been recently questioned especially for women: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/24/alcohol-cancer-risk-drinking

So what are your thoughts of the double standers when looking at Alcohol and cigarettes. Should the image surrounding alcohol use be change and similar health campaign (to the one tackled cigarette smoking globally) should be launched. Your thoughts!

Of course I am biased since I have been affected by the alcoholism of loved ones!



LadyConstanze -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:27:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Slaveforlife789


And the notion that a bit of alcohol is good for you have been recently questioned especially for women: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/24/alcohol-cancer-risk-drinking



Then you might wonder why all the cancers mentioned that a woman courts when she's having a glass of wine a day are not enormous in countries like Italy and France, where you do have a glass of wine with your dinner, since I'm half Italian, I find that a very civilized custom.

I can't stand people that are drunk, not talking about slightly tipsy, we've all been there but stumbling, falling over drunk, I need to leave because it sets my teeth on edge and I can't stand it.

Alcohol and nicotine are not good for us, nor is fast food or overly processed food with too much salt and saturated fats, I don't have the statistics but if I was to venture a guess, I would think the health related problems and costs of obesity are way higher than the costs regarding alcohol related illnesses.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:32:37 AM)

Seems the OP is a bitter smoker.

You claim that noone looks down on a drunken person? In what universe? Stumbling drunks are generally seen as pathetic individuals who are subject to arrest on sight. I've never seen anyone spend 2 days in jail for having a few cigarettes before they drive either.

Maybe the reason people are thrown out of buildings, as you put it, for smoking is because of the stench. I can sit at a table behind you and drink a beer and you would never know it. Can I smoke behind you without the smell getting into your clothes, hair, etc?



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:40:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

You claim that noone looks down on a drunken person? In what universe


I do hear it all the time from young people stating proudly: "I was wasted yesterday "and everyone is smiling as if it is a great thing. Once a person passed his/her second alcohol drink they are scientifically "drunk"- I did not invent that definition. At that level, alcohol starts to harm! No one seems to care. That’s what I tried to say.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:42:43 AM)

TY for clearing it up. Yes, young folks do that. It's called immaturity/stupidity.

Folks my age tend to say "Damn, I got drunk last weekend" as a way of acknowledging an error in judgement.



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:46:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


Then you might wonder why all the cancers mentioned that a woman courts when she's having a glass of wine a day are not enormous in countries like Italy and France, where you do have a glass of wine with your dinner, since I'm half Italian, I find that a very civilized custom.

I can't stand people that are drunk, not talking about slightly tipsy, we've all been there but stumbling, falling over drunk, I need to leave because it sets my teeth on edge and I can't stand it.

Alcohol and nicotine are not good for us, nor is fast food or overly processed food with too much salt and saturated fats, I don't have the statistics but if I was to venture a guess, I would think the health related problems and costs of obesity are way higher than the costs regarding alcohol related illnesses.


I cannot agree with analogy, food is actually something the body needs. Alcohol is a psychoactive substance- it is not food. The body does not need alcohol to function while it does need the nutrients in food. Now the choice of the type of food and the amount of it is something else. Actually, there is health awareness campaign regarding healthy eating but nothing at the same level regarding the abused drug: alcohol.

I have a drink now and then and personally do not like the feeling after few ones.



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 8:52:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

TY for clearing it up. Yes, young folks do that. It's called immaturity/stupidity.

Folks my age tend to say "Damn, I got drunk last weekend" as a way of acknowledging an error in judgement.



Now, I think we are at the same page



LadyConstanze -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 9:00:28 AM)

So you think adults going up to the young people upon overhearing that and saying "Do you know how bad alcohol is for you?" Would change a thing? They'd just go "Go on and bore me..." I can't understand binge drinking at all, despite being a smoker (a relatively mild one though) I don't smoke in the house because of the stench, if I can't get my ass out on the porch or go around the back of the house to have one of my 3 to 5 cigs a day, then I'm such a lazy git, I don't deserve to have one. While I love the smell of a freshly lit cigarette, it only smells good with coffee and in fresh air, it's not a particularly pleasant smell to have in my hair or my clothes, or furniture or curtains. Then I do have pets, smoking in the house would make them inhale 2nd hand smoke - they wouldn't have a choice. Like hell I'd smoke in the house. Even when I am outside, the cats and dogs often come to sit with me, when I smoke the pets keep their distance, big cat boy will give me angry glares and complain loudly before marching away and shooting dirty looks in my direction.

My dogs are both beer monsters who will attempt to swindle strangers out of their pints or just steal beer, not a clue where they get that from, I don't even like beer and I don't let them have more than the drip tray with a lot of water. They are my responsibility, random teens getting drunk are not, I'm not their parent or responsible for them. I don't hang around with drunks, booze is taxed enough as it is in the UK, tobacco products are taxed like crazy, the amount the government would lose out on tax if everybody would stop smoking and drinking would really cause a deficit!



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 9:14:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

So you think adults going up to the young people upon overhearing that and saying "Do you know how bad alcohol is for you?" Would change a thing? They'd just go "Go on and bore me..." I can't understand binge drinking at all, despite being a smoker (a relatively mild one though) I don't smoke in the house because of the stench, if I can't get my ass out on the porch or go around the back of the house to have one of my 3 to 5 cigs a day, then I'm such a lazy git, I don't deserve to have one. While I love the smell of a freshly lit cigarette, it only smells good with coffee and in fresh air, it's not a particularly pleasant smell to have in my hair or my clothes, or furniture or curtains. Then I do have pets, smoking in the house would make them inhale 2nd hand smoke - they wouldn't have a choice. Like hell I'd smoke in the house. Even when I am outside, the cats and dogs often come to sit with me, when I smoke the pets keep their distance, big cat boy will give me angry glares and complain loudly before marching away and shooting dirty looks in my direction.

My dogs are both beer monsters who will attempt to swindle strangers out of their pints or just steal beer, not a clue where they get that from, I don't even like beer and I don't let them have more than the drip tray with a lot of water. They are my responsibility, random teens getting drunk are not, I'm not their parent or responsible for them. I don't hang around with drunks, booze is taxed enough as it is in the UK, tobacco products are taxed like crazy, the amount the government would lose out on tax if everybody would stop smoking and drinking would really cause a deficit!


We need to engage younger people in a long-term campaign. Cigarette campaign did work eventually but it took years. There is no political or social desire to initiate something at the alcohol level, maybe because it is so embedded in the social fabric of our society. I attended an event recently “conversation for change” and I was impressed with over 200 younger adults attending. Change can happen if it is done right and as a long-term strategy.

I doubt the tax revenue is different than Canada but the social cost takes into account benefits, including taxes. It is not in the positive end in Canada and my guts tell me it should be the same in the UK. I am sure there is literature out there that determined to net social cost of alcohol in the UK.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 9:32:11 AM)

You mean all that adverts about drinking responsibly, educating people on the units of alcohol and all that that you see everywhere here is nothing? I think obesity is a much much bigger problem (pun intended), kids will drink for a while, what they have to learn is deal with booze responsibly, most of them will grow out of it.



IrishMist -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 9:48:54 AM)

I used to smoke. Every day, 3 packs a day up until about 6 years ago. I stopped, not because of a campaign, not because I was being kicked out of places, not because I had to step outside if I wanted to smoke. I stopped because I was asked by my daughter. She asked me not because she was worried of the health risks, but because according to her, it was hypricritical of me to advise her not to smoke while I was doing so. She was right.

I used to drink. Now I don't. Not because of any 'potential' health risks ( at least, not in what you would consider health risks ) but because when I drink, I get mean and go looking for reasons to start trouble. This tendency was pointed out to me more than 20 years ago. I stopped drinking at that time because the person who pointed it out to me was right. What's more, I did not drink to get a buzz, get drunk, or because I enjoyed it to that degree. I drank because it made the violence clearer, more acute.

All my older children drink. That is their choice, one they made once they were adult enough to accept responsibility for their actions. Two of those older children also smoke. Once again, it's a choice they made themselves. They did not start until after they had left my house.
Never would I think to try and tell them that they can't drink, smoke, eat too much, spend too much, etc etc. They are adults. The choices they make are their own. I can advise, but I would never think to step over the line that I believe should be there. The same will hold true with the youngest who will be leaving for college next year. Once she leaves, it becomes her choice and her responsibility.

If a person wants to drink or wants to smoke, that is their perogative. It's not my place to tell them that they can't. It's not my place to lecture them on the dangers that may or may not be there. They are adults; and as adults, have earned the right to make their own choices/mistakes in life. A harsh stance to take, perhaps, but I have seen enough of the 'wrong' side of life to KNOW that they are more than capable of weighing the pro's and con's of each; what's more, if they wish to be treated as adults in this area, than they can do so and accept the responsibility of consequenses that come with it.



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 9:52:21 AM)

quote:

used to drink. Now I don't. Not because of any 'potential' health risks ( at least, not in what you would consider health risks ) but because when I drink, I get mean and go looking for reasons to start trouble. This tendency was pointed out to me more than 20 years ago. I stopped drinking at that time because the person who pointed it out to me was right. What's more, I did not drink to get a buzz, get drunk, or because I enjoyed it to that degree. I drank because it made the violence clearer, more acute.

All my older children drink. That is their choice, one they made once they were adult enough to accept responsibility for their actions. Two of those older children also smoke. Once again, it's a choice they made themselves. They did not start until after they had left my house.
Never would I think to try and tell them that they can't drink, smoke, eat too much, spend too much, etc etc. They are adults. The choices they make are their own. I can advise, but I would never think to step over the line that I believe should be there. The same will hold true with the youngest who will be leaving for college next year. Once she leaves, it becomes her choice and her responsibility.


Nice. Thanks for sharing this.



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 10:12:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You mean all that adverts about drinking responsibly, educating people on the units of alcohol and all that that you see everywhere here is nothing? I think obesity is a much much bigger problem (pun intended), kids will drink for a while, what they have to learn is deal with booze responsibly, most of them will grow out of it.


LadyConstanze:

Those are good start but I I mean no Ads on TV with those happy faces, no easy access, no sale price, written comments on bottles and cans stating what this substance can do for you. Same what was done to cigarettes. Campaigns against cigarettes were heavily evaluated scientifically and it was proven to work.

I did some work with addiction and the harm of alcohol is bigger than many think: "Worldwide, alcohol causes a loss of 58.3 million DALYs annually, which represents 4% of the total loss of DALYs from all causes. Mental disorders and diseases of the nervous system account for about 40% of DALYs lost because of alcohol". From http://www.greenfacts.org/en/alcohol/l-2/01-number-people-affected.htm#0

I will state again, I am biased since I have been affected by someone else's drinking.



NuevaVida -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 10:36:51 AM)

I have been negatively affected by alcoholism too (family) but that doesn't change my view on alcohol. It enlightened me about addiction, which is the real problem here. Removing the alcohol does not remove the addiction.

As for food, yes everybody needs food. But fatty, carcinogenic, obesity causing food is not a need. I'm inclined to agree with LC's notion that obesity causes more health risk than alcohism. If your campaign here is about health, then make it about health, not alcohol.

The reason smokers get so much flak is because it stinks and it makes others cough. A direct physical affect will attract more attention than an indirect affect.



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 10:44:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I have been negatively affected by alcoholism too (family) but that doesn't change my view on alcohol. It enlightened me about addiction, which is the real problem here. Removing the alcohol does not remove the addiction.

As for food, yes everybody needs food. But fatty, carcinogenic, obesity causing food is not a need. I'm inclined to agree with LC's notion that obesity causes more health risk than alcohism. If your campaign here is about health, then make it about health, not alcohol.

The reason smokers get so much flak is because it stinks and it makes others cough. A direct physical affect will attract more attention than an indirect affect.


I never said "removing" but I believe in changing the social image (cigarettes social image has changed drastically in the past 30 years). Show me the numbers that obesity is a big of a burden- I am positive it is not- Maybe in 10-15 years. Well, actually alcohol consumption contributes to obesity. By the way, I do drink now and then too.

Violence, work disruption, and fatal accidents are also linked to alcohol consumption. Alcohol is the leading cause of death for young adults (below 24) in Canada. It is more than health, it is a social issue.



NuevaVida -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 10:57:54 AM)

So your issue is with alcohol and not about health concerns over all. I misunderstood the OP. But I'm at work right now so I'll get back you you on the food vs alcohol statistics. Stay tuned.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 11:09:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Slaveforlife789


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


I never said "removing" but I believe in changing the social image (cigarettes social image has changed drastically in the past 30 years). Show me the numbers that obesity is a big of a burden- I am positive it is not- Maybe in 10-15 years. Well, actually alcohol consumption contributes to obesity. By the way, I do drink now and then too.

Violence, work disruption, and fatal accidents are also linked to alcohol consumption. Alcohol is the leading cause of death for young adults (below 24) in Canada. It is more than health, it is a social issue.



http://www.who.int/features/factfiles/obesity/en/

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs311/en/index.html

quote:

Worldwide obesity has more than doubled since 1980.
In 2008, 1.5 billion adults, 20 and older, were overweight. Of these over 200 million men and nearly 300 million women were obese.
65% of the world's population live in countries where overweight and obesity kills more people than underweight.
Nearly 43 million children under the age of five were overweight in 2010.
Obesity is preventable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_obesity

quote:

The number of Canadians who are obese has risen dramatically in recent years. In 2004, direct measurements of height and weight found 23.1% of Canadians older than 18 had a BMI greater than 30. When broken down into degrees of obesity, 15.2% were class I (BMI 30–34.9), 5.1% were class II (BMI 35–39.9), and 2.7%, class III (BMI > 40). This is in contrast to self-reported data the previous year of 15.2% and in 1978/1979 of 13.8%. The greatest increases occurred among the more severe degrees of obesity; class III obesity increased from 0.9% to 2.7% from 1978/1979 to 2004. Obesity in Canada varies by ethnicity; people of Aboriginal origin have a significantly higher rate of obesity (37.6%) than the national average.[10]

In children obesity has substantially increased between 1989 and 2004 with rates in boys increasing from 2% to 10% and rates among girls increasing from 2% to 9%.


http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/02February/Pages/obesity-death-records-jump.aspx

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/foo_alc_con-food-alcohol-consumption-current

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita




GreedyTop -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 11:18:42 AM)

~FR~

no ad campaign is going to affect an addict. the addiction is stronger than any Madison avenue presentation.

I say this as a functional alcoholic/heavy smoker.

I'm one of those people that the more ya tell me NO!!! the more I will ignore you. is that necessarily a mature reaction? no.. but I refer you to the second sentence of this post...



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 11:22:34 AM)

Wow . Thanks LadyCostanze. I have to look at those in details.

Actually even excessive eating can be labeled under the “addiction” umbrella.

Still annoys me that alcohol is "cool" while cigarettes are “disgusting” in the public image, generally speaking as individual views may vary. Not trying to argue with anyone here



Slaveforlife789 -> RE: Alcohol vs Cigarettes (8/9/2011 11:24:40 AM)

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

quote:

no ad campaign is going to affect an addict. the addiction is stronger than any Madison avenue presentation.





True but it may help stopping potential addict from becoming one. Number of people who smoke has dropped significantly which is a good thing. It will be nice to see harmful use of alcohol drops down too



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