RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (Full Version)

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blacksword404 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 5:48:45 AM)

They get paid. It might be a question of who does the paying. But let's say you are forced to work without being paid. Do you think obamacare is going to solve that issue? That sounds like slavery to me.




tazzygirl -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 5:51:18 AM)

If they get paid, then why is it often called the unfinanced mandate?

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)[1] is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay. There are no reimbursement provisions. As a result of the act, patients needing emergency treatment can be discharged only under their own informed consent or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment. EMTALA applies to "participating hospitals", i.e., those that accept payment from the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under the Medicare program. However, in practical terms, EMTALA applies to virtually all hospitals in the U.S., with the exception of the Shriners Hospitals for Children, Indian Health Service hospitals, and Veterans Affairs hospitals[citation needed]. The combined payments of Medicare and Medicaid, $602 billion in 2004,[2] or roughly 44% of all medical expenditures in the U.S., make not participating in EMTALA impractical for nearly all hospitals. EMTALA's provisions apply to all patients, and not just to Medicare patients.[3][4] The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government. Because of this, the law has been criticized by some as an unfunded mandate.[5] Similarly, it has attracted controversy for its impacts on hospitals, and in particular, for its possible contributions to an emergency medical system that is "overburdened, underfunded and highly fragmented."[6] More than half of all emergency room care in the U.S. now goes uncompensated[citation needed]. Hospitals write off such care as charity or bad debt for tax purposes. Increasing financial pressures on hospitals in the period since EMTALA's passage have caused consolidations and closures, so the number of emergency rooms is decreasing despite increasing demand for emergency care.[7] There is also debate about the extent to which EMTALA has led to cost-shifting and higher rates for insured or paying hospital patients, thereby contributing to the high overall rate of medical inflation in the U.S.

quote:

They get paid. It might be a question of who does the paying. But let's say you are forced to work without being paid. Do you think obamacare is going to solve that issue? That sounds like slavery to me.


Unless you are referring to the employees getting paid.  Another federal requirement they cannot get out of.  That wasnt what I was referring too.




MrRodgers -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:25:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

For the utterly stupid out there, this ruling now opens the door to remove the "mandatory auto-insurance scam"  If one is unconstitutional, so is the other.  This establishes a two tiered insurance system, and THAT is what is unconstitutional.  That one can be subject to an enforced mandate and not the other, seems to me to be in violation of the 14th amendment.

Nope.

US Federal versus State powers.

Firm


Oh, the states are exempt from the constitution ? Good, we can finally have our slaves back ? There is currently a 'mandate' to pay for Medicare for somebody older. There is a 'mandate' to both employee and employer to pay SS tax while being too young to use it.

Clearly we have mandates that have been constitutional for quite a bit of this country's history. There is ample precedent for govt. mandates but leave to our capitalist courts to break again with Stare decisis that they promised would not happen and yet has happened and it will likely again on 'ObamaCare.'

Kinkroids...healthcare, all wars, every service, every policy, every possible requirement of society, is to be...at a profit...period. Health care is no different.

So we will only see healthcare reform when ALL emergency care bills are treated like a tax the collection of which could involve your home, your income and in even a single case if enough of a balance due...bankruptcy.

America, the richest country in history [sic] leads the world and by a large margin...in bankruptcies.





MrRodgers -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:36:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

They get paid. It might be a question of who does the paying. But let's say you are forced to work without being paid. Do you think obamacare is going to solve that issue? That sounds like slavery to me.

Current insurance rate payers and hospitals are now slave to EMTALA as explained, so just where is that 'mandate' placed now.

As for 'they' get paid...no they do not. Trust me, I not that long ago paid an emergency medical bill and my conversations with them often ended on the note that they (hospitals) write off thousands every year. Emergency treatment costs...NOT paid.

Never heard of anybody being forced to work without being paid and truly wonder where that could enter the discussion...except desperation.




MrRodgers -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:47:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

FR


For the utterly stupid out there, this ruling now opens the door to remove the "mandatory auto-insurance scam"  If one is unconstitutional, so is the other.  This establishes a two tiered insurance system, and THAT is what is unconstitutional.  That one can be subject to an enforced mandate and not the other, seems to me to be in violation of the 14th amendment.

Insuringly,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



The two issues are not the same. No one forces you to drive on public streets. But the government is saying that being alive is engaging in business. So you can be regulated. Which is an idiotic thought. Not Fucking is now fucking. Not drinking is now drinking. Buying and selling is commerce not it's absence.

Let's use our common sense. So 'not being alive' is your only escape. Will you oblige ?

Being alive is not the issue... remaining alive is. Now I understand in America, once you are out of the womb...you and mommy are on your own but in growing up, you will make a profit for yourself or for somebody else. That's a mandate, yes, even for non-profits.

Otherwise 'being alive' means you are a demand for food, clothing and shelter. We'll call it...life's mandate. That costs money. Remaining alive costs money a large part of which is health care. Somebody 'pays' for it and it is every bit as much...a mandate.




barelynangel -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:48:59 AM)

The auto insurance requirement you don't have to buy anything for yourself but you do have to buy insurance if you choose to drive for damage you may cause while driving.  All that is required by law if i am not mistaken is liability.  So whomever is trying to make it the same is not understanding the difference.

angel




MrRodgers -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:52:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

FR


For the utterly stupid out there, this ruling now opens the door to remove the "mandatory auto-insurance scam"  If one is unconstitutional, so is the other. 
Insuringly,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



Knucklehead indeed. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You do understand that FEDERAL government and STATE government are two different things, right? You do understand that mandatory auto insurance is to protect OTHERS FROM YOUR FAULTS, not to protect yourself, right? You do understand YOU DONT HAVE TO FUCKING DRIVE, right?

You do realize that health insurance 'protects others from your health care costs' If you choose to drive, you pay auto liability insurance, if you choose to live, you are to pay health care liability insurance.




barelynangel -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 6:59:23 AM)

Umm no MrRodgers you mistake what the autoinsurance requirement is.  It doesn't pay off debt you owe for services rendered.

If you do not have full coverage, you do not get paid medical or anything with regard to auto insurance IF you yourself are injured or it pays for your new car, it pays rental cares etc.  All that is required, i believe, is liability, which is only damage you cause others.

You aren't causing damage to anyone but yourself if you need to utilize your health care insurance.  Payment for debt is not what auto insurance covers.




tj444 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:00:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
You do understand that mandatory auto insurance is to protect OTHERS FROM YOUR FAULTS, not to protect yourself, right?

Now that is where you are wrong,.. the mandatory auto insurance gives people the illusion of protection, the amount you must be covered by is a joke, seriously,.. if you are injured, anything more than a scratch, how many days in the hospital do you think it actually pays for? Especially considering how way overpriced US healthcare is. In Canada (at least in BC where I lived), the mandatory minimum was $1 million coverage and they recommend 2 million.. and medical care there is like half or a third of what the same procedures would cost in the US (at least from what I have been able to compare).




barelynangel -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:10:30 AM)

http://www.carinsurancerates.com/news/136-state-by-state-minimum-car-insurance-requirements.html

I found this and it explains what the insurance minimums are -- now, i also work in insurance defense -- which means when someone sues you and you have insurance company --- we are the attorneys your insurance companies higher to defend you. And YOU are our client.  SO they pretty much foot the bill and work with us to settle your case within your limits so it doesn't cost you anything outside of your insurance payments.

Now -- i will say this -- MOST if not all of our cases are usually settled within the limits of your insurance.  I don't remember the last time we went to actual trial for an insurance defense case -- which means they were settled within the limits.

Also, what many people don't get is when your insurance company hires us that doesn't come off your deductible or your limits, they pay for that.  So while your limits may be 25/50/10 -- the insurance company's attorney bills for an average case is 5-25 grand depending on the type of case.

angel




MyVision -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:12:08 AM)

http://www.carinsurancerates.com/news/62-mandatory-insurance-laws-are-they-fair.html

got interesting links too




barelynangel -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:19:30 AM)

I wasn't trying to post interesting links i simply posted a link with limits for each state.

Yeah, its a hard concept to explain -- but usually when a case settles, there are subrogation expenses that they Plaintiff pays from that settlement but A LOT of cases the medical expenses are covered when settlement is made.  Also, a lot of people's health insurance pays the medical bills and their subrogation is usually also covered by the settlement amount.

Usually if they won't be the case will go to trial to get a judgment against the defendant or the UM pays the rest and they go after the defendant for subrogation.


angel




StrangerThan -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:26:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


And yet courts have no problems forcing a certain group to perform services without any guarantee of payment.



Then get another damned job. I swear to God the excuses people will make to give government more control over their lives is absolutely incredible.

By all that is holy, I hope if this crap goes through, some future bible thumper Congress makes every fucking one of you buy a King James version of the Bible, an abortion is murder T-shirt, and a Undocumented: Liberal word for Illegal T-shirt because it's "good" for you.






tj444 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:31:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

http://www.carinsurancerates.com/news/136-state-by-state-minimum-car-insurance-requirements.html

I found this and it explains what the insurance minimums are -- now, i also work in insurance defense -- which means when someone sues you and you have insurance company --- we are the attorneys your insurance companies higher to defend you. And YOU are our client.  SO they pretty much foot the bill and work with us to settle your case within your limits so it doesn't cost you anything outside of your insurance payments.

Now -- i will say this -- MOST if not all of our cases are usually settled within the limits of your insurance.  I don't remember the last time we went to actual trial for an insurance defense case -- which means they were settled within the limits.

Also, what many people don't get is when your insurance company hires us that doesn't come off your deductible or your limits, they pay for that.  So while your limits may be 25/50/10 -- the insurance company's attorney bills for an average case is 5-25 grand depending on the type of case.

angel

Its not the small injuries that concern me, its the big ones, the ones where someone ends up in a wheelchair and needs care for the rest of their lives..
It sounds like if someone has been injured and happens to have medical insurance that you require them to use up their own medical benefits (until it reachs its max?) to pay for medical costs inflicted upon them?




barelynangel -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:43:32 AM)

Umm where did i mention small injuries.   Did i mention small injuries?   Nope, i don't believe i did. Sorry to take away some of your ignorance but our firm deals with some pretty catastrophic injuries up to and including death.  Yeah we also have "small" injuries lol good grief did you really call things SMALL injuries <--- that right there clues me in on your ignorance.

Here's a clue what you are calling "small" injuries are usually settled between the claimant and the insurance company.  WE get the cases when the suit goes through because the medicals and damages are larger than a scratch.

i am glad up there in Canada you have opinions based on all of your knowledge of US litigation based on auto accidents.   But i guess I really don't know much i just work with the cases daily.  Glad to see Canadians sooo worried about US auto insurance and the litigation process and repayment process.

angel




blacksword404 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:44:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If they get paid, then why is it often called the unfinanced mandate?

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)[1] is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals and ambulance services to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay. There are no reimbursement provisions. As a result of the act, patients needing emergency treatment can be discharged only under their own informed consent or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment. EMTALA applies to "participating hospitals", i.e., those that accept payment from the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under the Medicare program. However, in practical terms, EMTALA applies to virtually all hospitals in the U.S., with the exception of the Shriners Hospitals for Children, Indian Health Service hospitals, and Veterans Affairs hospitals[citation needed]. The combined payments of Medicare and Medicaid, $602 billion in 2004,[2] or roughly 44% of all medical expenditures in the U.S., make not participating in EMTALA impractical for nearly all hospitals. EMTALA's provisions apply to all patients, and not just to Medicare patients.[3][4] The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government. Because of this, the law has been criticized by some as an unfunded mandate.[5] Similarly, it has attracted controversy for its impacts on hospitals, and in particular, for its possible contributions to an emergency medical system that is "overburdened, underfunded and highly fragmented."[6] More than half of all emergency room care in the U.S. now goes uncompensated[citation needed]. Hospitals write off such care as charity or bad debt for tax purposes. Increasing financial pressures on hospitals in the period since EMTALA's passage have caused consolidations and closures, so the number of emergency rooms is decreasing despite increasing demand for emergency care.[7] There is also debate about the extent to which EMTALA has led to cost-shifting and higher rates for insured or paying hospital patients, thereby contributing to the high overall rate of medical inflation in the U.S.

quote:

They get paid. It might be a question of who does the paying. But let's say you are forced to work without being paid. Do you think obamacare is going to solve that issue? That sounds like slavery to me.


Unless you are referring to the employees getting paid.  Another federal requirement they cannot get out of.  That wasnt what I was referring too.



I guess it is a form of slavery. At least for the hospitals. I would have long ago stopped working if I only got paid for half of my work. I still think obamacare is an overboard way of fixing that problem.




tj444 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:53:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Umm where did i mention small injuries.   Did i mention small injuries?   Nope, i don't believe i did. Sorry to take away some of your ignorance but our firm deals with some pretty catastrophic injuries up to and including death.  Yeah we also have "small" injuries lol good grief did you really call things SMALL injuries <--- that right there clues me in on your ignorance.

Here's a clue what you are calling "small" injuries are usually settled between the claimant and the insurance company.  WE get the cases when the suit goes through because the medicals and damages are larger than a scratch.

i am glad up there in Canada you have opinions based on all of your knowledge of US litigation based on auto accidents.   But i guess I really don't know much i just work with the cases daily.  Glad to see Canadians sooo worried about US auto insurance and the litigation process and repayment process.

angel

I actually live in the US. Just because you work in that industry every day doesnt mean that things are explained to people when they go to the auto insurance company, it was never explained to me.
So explain how only a few thousand in coverage can cover hundreds of thousands in medical costs. That is what i dont understand, who pays when the amount of medical care exceeds the minimums (assuming the injured party has no medical insurance)?




blacksword404 -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 7:53:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404


quote:

ORIGINAL: pogo4pres

FR


For the utterly stupid out there, this ruling now opens the door to remove the "mandatory auto-insurance scam"  If one is unconstitutional, so is the other.  This establishes a two tiered insurance system, and THAT is what is unconstitutional.  That one can be subject to an enforced mandate and not the other, seems to me to be in violation of the 14th amendment.

Insuringly,
Some Knucklehead in NJ



The two issues are not the same. No one forces you to drive on public streets. But the government is saying that being alive is engaging in business. So you can be regulated. Which is an idiotic thought. Not Fucking is now fucking. Not drinking is now drinking. Buying and selling is commerce not it's absence.

Let's use our common sense. So 'not being alive' is your only escape. Will you oblige ?

Being alive is not the issue... remaining alive is. Now I understand in America, once you are out of the womb...you and mommy are on your own but in growing up, you will make a profit for yourself or for somebody else. That's a mandate, yes, even for non-profits.

Otherwise 'being alive' means you are a demand for food, clothing and shelter. We'll call it...life's mandate. That costs money. Remaining alive costs money a large part of which is health care. Somebody 'pays' for it and it is every bit as much...a mandate.



Where is lifestyle mandate laid out in our constitution? However you want to phrase it, the government does not have the right to force you to buy a product. Food clothing and shelter are things you can provide for yourself, like people in the past did. Some still do.




tazzygirl -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 8:04:14 AM)

So we will only see healthcare reform when ALL emergency care bills are treated like a tax the collection of which could involve your home, your income and in even a single case if enough of a balance due...bankruptcy.

In some places its already like that.  When you sign the hospital paperwork upon discharge, you are also signing a credit application




tazzygirl -> RE: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law (8/13/2011 8:06:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


And yet courts have no problems forcing a certain group to perform services without any guarantee of payment.



Then get another damned job. I swear to God the excuses people will make to give government more control over their lives is absolutely incredible.

By all that is holy, I hope if this crap goes through, some future bible thumper Congress makes every fucking one of you buy a King James version of the Bible, an abortion is murder T-shirt, and a Undocumented: Liberal word for Illegal T-shirt because it's "good" for you.





No one was talking about the fucking employees.  Get your head out of my pocket and start looking at the bigger picture here.  Its your pocket you should be addressing.




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