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The word "Tenthers" forget is missing from th... - 8/22/2011 8:58:56 AM   
Fightdirecto


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Constitutional Myths

quote:

Politifact Georgia reports that pizza magnate Herman Cain told the audience at an Atlanta rally to read the Constitution, explaining that "for the benefit for those that are not going to read it because they don't want us to go by the Constitution, there's a little section in there that talks about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness ... When you get to the part about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, don't stop right there, keep reading. 'Cause that's when it says that when any form of government becomes destructive of those ideals, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it. We've got some altering and some abolishing to do."

This quote neatly illustrates two pathologies of 21st-century "constitutionalism."

First, many of these patriots love the Constitution too much to actually read it (in case you were wondering, the language Cain is quoting is from the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution). Second, they love the Constitution so much they want to "alter or abolish" it to make sure it matches the myth in their heads. Those myths are a problem.


A "Tenther" is someone who believes the myth and not the reality and who seeks to brand all major federal legislation - child labor laws, environmental laws, gun control laws, Social Security, Medicare, ad infinitum - as violations of the "rights" of states as supposedly spelled out in the Tenth Amendment. Some of the more extreme "Tenthers" take the position that all amendments after the 10th Amendment are invalid.

Senator Jim DeMint, a Tenther and Tea Party pin-up boy, wrote in the National Review:

quote:

the Tenth Amendment says powers not explicitly given to the federal government in the Constitution go to the states or the people


However, the 10th Amendment actually says, in it's entirety:

quote:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Constitutional Myth #7: The 10th Amendment

quote:

Notice that DeMint, like a lot of "Tenthers," managed to sneak a word in that the Framers didn't write.

The word is "explicitly." Nothing in the Tenth Amendment says that powers - such as power to regulate child labor as part of commerce, for example - must be explicitly or expressly given to the federal government.

Since the Amendment was adopted, constitutional thinkers have concluded that the express powers delegated to the federal government by the Constitution necessarily carry with them the "implied" powers needed to carry them out.

If "implied power" sounds like tricky lawyer talk, ask yourself the following question: Is the American flag unconstitutional? The Constitution doesn't make any reference to a national flag. By the "express" argument, states and only states would retain what we might call "the flag power." The U.S. Army would have to march under a congeries of the fifty state flags, depending on the origin of each unit. That would be cumbersome, confusing, and dangerous -- and more to the point, stupid. Congress can "raise and support armies." A country that has an explicit power to raise an army has the implied power to designate a flag. Nobody seriously reads a Constitution any other way.

Conservatives don't when it's a power they want the government to have. And James Madison didn't either. Madison was the sponsor of the proposed Bill of Rights in Congress. When Representative Thomas Tucker of South Carolina moved to insert the word "expressly" into what became the Tenth Amendment, Madison "objected to this amendment, because it was impossible to confine a government to the exercise of express powers, there must necessarily be admitted powers by implication, unless the constitution descended to recount every minutiae. Madison remembered the word 'expressly' had been moved in the convention of Virginia, by the opponents to the ratification, and after full and fair discussion was given up by them, and the system allowed to retain its present form." Tucker's amendment was voted down.

Chief Justice John Marshall, who had been a delegate to the Virginia Ratifying Convention in 1788 (making him, though you'd never know this from reading far-right "constitutionalist" writing, a Founder), read the Tenth Amendment the same way. In McCulloch v. Maryland, Marshall rejected the argument that because Congress has no express power to create a bank, it is forbidden to do so. He noted the absence of "expressly" in the Tenth Amendment: "The men who drew and adopted this amendment had experienced the embarrassments resulting from the insertion of this word in the Articles of Confederation, and probably omitted it to avoid those embarrassments."

"Constitutionalists" who try to smuggle the word back into the Constitution aren't being faithful to the document; they are rewriting it. (They also try to smuggle the ideas of state "rights" and state "sovereignty" back in. In fact, many proud "constitutionalists" these days seem to me to bear primary allegiance to the Articles of Confederation, not this new-fangled Madison thing caled the Constitution Of The United States.)

The best way to read the Tenth Amendment we actually have is that its words mean what they say, and not what they don't say. The Constitution grants Congress all the implied powers "necessary and proper" to using its enumerated powers...

Some powers are given exclusively to the federal government, and cannot be shared, such as the power to conduct war and negotiate peace, regulate currency and emit bills of credit, or set the discipline of the armed forces and state militias. Some powers are given to the states, and can't be taken by the federal government, including the power to designate state capitals, adopt state constitutions, draw the political boundaries of cities and towns, choose the officers of their state militias. Many powers are explicitly denied to the states -- for example, they can't even negotiate agreements among themselves without Congress's permission. Some are expressly denied to the federal government -- the power to set criminal venue in states where the crimes did not occur, for example.


quote:

When my eyes shall be turned to behold for the last time the sun in heaven, may I not see him shining on the broken and dishonored fragments of a once glorious Union; on States dissevered, discordant, belligerent; on a land rent with civil feuds, or drenched, it may be, in fraternal blood! Let their last feeble and lingering glance rather behold the gorgeous ensign of the republic... not a stripe erased or polluted, nor a single star obscured, bearing for its motto, no such miserable interrogatory as "What is all this worth?" nor those other words of delusion and folly, "Liberty first and Union afterwards"; but everywhere, spread all over in characters of living light, blazing on all its ample folds, as they float over the sea and over the land, and in every wind under the whole heavens, that other sentiment, dear to every true American heart,— Liberty and Union, now and for ever, one and inseparable!

- Daniel Webster, 1830


The United States is not 50 small countries, working together sometimes and working against each other at other times - it is one nation.




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< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 8/22/2011 9:00:15 AM >


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 9:52:37 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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"Explicitly" is implied. There is no functional difference between "not explicitly delegated" and "not delegated" unless you can find some history indicating the word was removed and why. [/thread]

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 10:07:02 AM   
mnottertail


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explicitly is absolutely not implied. the 10th has been enforced twice in its history. The thing that arbitrates the issue has always been the necessary and proper clause judicially.

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 10:30:22 AM   
HannahLynHeather


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quote:

Representative Thomas Tucker of South Carolina moved to insert the word "expressly" into what became the Tenth Amendment ... Tucker's amendment was voted down.

it would seem that a proposal to add the word "expressly" was defeated. so it seems pretty fucking clear to a person interested in reality that the intent was not to have such wording. the idea that words you wish were there were somehow intended to be there but just got forgotten is fucking retarded. those fuckers agonized over every fucking word. they took a year to write it. a whole fucking year! what the fuck do you think they were doing all that time? playing wii?

why the fuck don't people actually read what they are responding to - major fail!


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 12:08:15 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"Explicitly" is implied.

Sorry, "explicitly" IS NOT implied.

As previously cited, "explicitly" and "expressly" were intentionally left out of the Constitution by the men who wrote it.

If it isn't there in writing in the Constitution - it doesn't exist in the Constitution, no matter how much a self-deluded, self important, narcissistic, secessionist individual thinks it is.


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 12:41:15 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"Explicitly" is implied.

Sorry, "explicitly" IS NOT implied.

As previously cited, "explicitly" and "expressly" were intentionally left out of the Constitution by the men who wrote it.

If it isn't there in writing in the Constitution - it doesn't exist in the Constitution, no matter how much a self-deluded, self important, narcissistic, secessionist individual thinks it is.



So you are saying that a female may never be president, then.

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 12:42:27 PM   
mnottertail


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No, as usual when someone says either

So what you're saying is...
Are you saying that....

He is not.

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:04:50 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
So you are saying that a female may never be president, then.


We're going to back the constitution up and your not even gonna have the right to vote.  




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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:15:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Damn "tenthers".

The Constitution should only mean what you want it to mean, eh, FD?

And if anyone disagrees with you, they are obviously a fringe group that deserves no respect?  ("Tenther"?!)

Perhaps we just have too damn many umbras and penumbras floating around this damn place.

Firm


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:18:01 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Oh, I forgot ... and too damn many "emanations from the Penumbras"

Firm


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:22:04 PM   
slvemike4u


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I'm confused Firm,I have always taken you for a strict constitutionalist,was I mistaken?
Seems you would be opposed to any and all who would decide to add(or subtract) text/words to that document?

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:28:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


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mike,

I'm not interested (in this thread) in getting into an argument about the differences between "explicitly" and "expressly" and such.

I think my overall position is that our Federal government has too much power.  Much more power than envisioned by the Founders, and much more than is healthy for the particularly liberal version of self-government and individual responsibility that we were founded upon.

Those excessive powers come from a few different places, but one of them is the finding of "new" or "previously unknown" powers in the "umbras, penumbras, and emanations" of the Constitution.

The basic concept that formed this nation was "limited government". 

If "finding" a new definition of "explicitly" in the "emanations" of the Constitution reduces the overall power of the government, I'd just as soon be "wrong" on the side of lesser powers, rather than on the side of more powers.

Firm


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:35:48 PM   
slvemike4u


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Ahh, so in other words you see the document in much the same way as others.....ie: fungible,as long as the distortion leads to seeing things your way.
That's cool,I figure most folks are like that,they tend to see things the way they want to see things.

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 1:46:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Ahh, so in other words you see the document in much the same way as others.....ie: fungible,as long as the distortion leads to seeing things your way.
That's cool,I figure most folks are like that,they tend to see things the way they want to see things.

Wait ... isn't the Constitution a "living document"?

I'm more a "strict constructionist" than I am anything else, true, as you should have picked up when I said " I'd just as soon be "wrong" on the side of lesser powers, rather than on the side of more powers"

But we are were we are in history and law.  Wishing for something ("strict construction") that hasn't been a viable option for almost a century is a little bit of living outside of reality, isn't it?

If you've been following me much at all, I've stated several times that I'm no longer a "good guy who'll play by the rules" when it comes to "political decorum". I think we are almost past that point.

Firm


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:11:28 PM   
Arpig


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Not meaning to sound to much like Hannah here, but if that's the case Firm, then why not scrap the whole thing, why even bother with the pretense of  Constitutionality?

That seems to be the logical conclusion of that line of thinking to me.


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:14:28 PM   
StrangerThan


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Not that I have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one but... seems like a lot of word play over nothing.

Let's say King number 1 says, you are not allowed to eat oatmeal in the morning. I shall whack of ye head if ye do.

King 2 says, Damnit, I am telling you as explicitly as possible, you are not allowed to eat oatmeal in the morning. I will be the one whacking off your head if you do.

Dunno about you but I'm not going to feel much safer about eating oatmeal under either one cause they essentially mean the same thing.

Kind of like the two lines you're complaining about.

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:14:56 PM   
slvemike4u


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Yeah well it has been long past the time where your side declares itself as strict constructionists anyway.Seems I can remember a time when you guys decried "activist" supremes......now you all don't mint the, so much as long as they are activists on your side of the ledger.Was it Scalia who inserted the word "intentional" in front of "cruel and inhumane" in a recent majority decision?Now of course the word never appears there....but Scalia and his brethren thought it should have?

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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:25:31 PM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Not that I have a dog in this fight, nor do I want one but... seems like a lot of word play over nothing.

Let's say King number 1 says, you are not allowed to eat oatmeal in the morning. I shall whack of ye head if ye do.

King 2 says, Damnit, I am telling you as explicitly as possible, you are not allowed to eat oatmeal in the morning. I will be the one whacking off your head if you do.

Dunno about you but I'm not going to feel much safer about eating oatmeal under either one cause they essentially mean the same thing.

Kind of like the two lines you're complaining about.


Ahh, gotcha I'll correct myself. Maybe they should have. We wouldn't be fighting over every possible meaning of every possible word if they had.




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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:28:52 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Not meaning to sound to much like Hannah here, but if that's the case Firm, then why not scrap the whole thing, why even bother with the pretense of  Constitutionality?

That seems to be the logical conclusion of that line of thinking to me.

Oh, it is the logical conclusion, Arpig, it certainly is.

But ... I guess ... how would all the libs and lefties on the forums see me, if I started calling for a revolution? 

Would I then become "a radical"? 

I have some pretty definite ideas about some of the pieces to replace it with, although not a complete "replacement document".

But I do believe that we have a much better understanding and foundation in individual and group behavior now, than we did at the time of the founding, although they had some damn fine insights.

Firm


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RE: The word "Tenthers" forget is missing fro... - 8/22/2011 2:34:29 PM   
flcouple2009


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You caught this Mike

quote:

If you've been following me much at all, I've stated several times that I'm no longer a "good guy who'll play by the rules" when it comes to "political decorum". I think we are almost past that point.


I guess this means old Firm is finally going to stop pretending he's ever been anything but a partisan hack who insults anyone who calls him on his bull shit.


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