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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/26/2011 8:00:32 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

If you are the lucky owner of a 1920s Martin guitar, it may well be made, in part, of Brazilian rosewood. Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument. Otherwise, you could lose it to a zealous customs agent—not to mention face fines and prosecuti



Oh, good, that will solve the United States' illegal immigration problem right bloody quick!!!!

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/26/2011 1:48:14 PM   
outhere69


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First, it's an opinion article.

Second, this isn't different than bringing a CITES parrot, lizard, shit, even an orchid ffs.

"The Lacey Act also makes it unlawful to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce any plant in violation of the laws of the United States, a State, an Indian tribe, or any foreign law that protects plants.

The Lacey Act was most recently amended as of May 22, 2008, when The Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008 expanded its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products (Section 8204. Prevention of Illegal Logging Practices)."

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/26/2011 5:46:17 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”


Perhaps Gibson should move his company to India.

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/26/2011 8:47:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”


Perhaps Gibson should move his company to India.


Your quote doesn't appear to be in te long form of the OP's article.
The finished product would be illegal to import into the US any way.

If crocodile products are illegal, it is still illegal to import the finished product.

Also, the wood in question is not from India, it is from Madagascar. It look like you might be off topic.

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/27/2011 5:28:00 AM   
EternalHoH


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quote:

“The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.”




So India has protectionism laws? Say it ain't so!  I was always told that protectionism always sparked retaliatory trade wars??  




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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/27/2011 6:03:11 AM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Also, the wood in question is not from India, it is from Madagascar. It look like you might be off topic.


Look at the article again.

There have been 2 different lots of wood seized.  The last being from India.


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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/27/2011 6:41:09 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Thanks. thats what I get from posting at oh dark hundred.

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/27/2011 7:55:54 PM   
FirmhandKY


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FR:

Here's an angle that may be pertinent:

CEO of Gibson Guitar a Republican donor; Democrat competitor uses same wood
By Andrew Lawton - Fri Aug 26, 1:17 pm

Extracts:

Gibson’s press release claims that, while this incident marks the second raid of their facility in around two years, this is the first of the raids to cost the company time and resources, as they needed to shut down operations. It seems as though this was all for naught.

The release read:

The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.

...

This unfortunate event begs the question, Why Gibson?

...

As a company, Gibson is a legendary. They’ve done nothing wrong, except, apparently, deigning to have a Republican CEO.

...

One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars.

Firm



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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 1:04:41 PM   
Lucylastic


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then let him be raided to... what good for one illegal user is good for another illegal user... I have no issue with that... if its all "true"

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 2:28:23 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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They'll have to write a song about it, those blues types need some new material.

I'll start them off (1st verse)...

"They took me guitar oh yeah the government they took my guitar..dar de dar they took me guitar. Oh naw I pleaded but they still took it, my guitar.."

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 4:57:43 PM   
flcouple2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

then let him be raided to... what good for one illegal user is good for another illegal user... I have no issue with that... if its all "true"


I do not believe it is over the political contributions.

I do believe they may be singled out and picked on because of the ongoing argument over the first load of wood from Madagascar. 


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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 5:10:15 PM   
Lucylastic


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Theres to many" ifs, maybes, coulds and possiblies" to make this a story to get dramatic about... the "facts" are tooo few and far between.

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 5:54:38 PM   
Termyn8or


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FR

Does anyone realize how fucking ridiculous this is ? If we in the US can be busted for the laws of another country, that means that we could be beheaded for homosexuality, have our hand cut off for stealing a loaf of bread and Women can't drive cars and must cover their faces when it public. I thought sovereignty meant that we have and enforce our own fucking laws.

What was I thinking ?

T^T

(in reply to Lucylastic)
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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/28/2011 6:26:00 PM   
Lucylastic


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if a country has a trade deal with the US and has that as one of their restrictions, the country has every right to expect that to be taken into consideration and upheld.
You cant just take from other countries without their permission,, oh..hang on...I know this goes against the grain of raping oil and other resources from far away countries and making slaves out of the indiginous population. Thats WHY there are Trade DEALS

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 12:40:30 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

Here's an angle that may be pertinent:

CEO of Gibson Guitar a Republican donor; Democrat competitor uses same wood
By Andrew Lawton - Fri Aug 26, 1:17 pm

Extracts:

Gibson’s press release claims that, while this incident marks the second raid of their facility in around two years, this is the first of the raids to cost the company time and resources, as they needed to shut down operations. It seems as though this was all for naught.

The release read:

The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.

...

This unfortunate event begs the question, Why Gibson?

...

As a company, Gibson is a legendary. They’ve done nothing wrong, except, apparently, deigning to have a Republican CEO.

...

One of Gibson’s leading competitors is C.F. Martin & Company. The C.E.O., Chris Martin IV, is a long-time Democratic supporter, with $35,400 in contributions to Democratic candidates and the DNC over the past couple of election cycles. According to C.F. Martin’s catalog, several of their guitars contain “East Indian Rosewood.” In case you were wondering, that is the exact same wood in at least ten of Gibson’s guitars.

Firm






OMG, you can't be serious with that idiotic spin?

Unfortunately, you stole what would have been a fun joke for most others by using it as a 'serious' perspective.

You are honestly incapable of seeing anything in the world in any other light then, truly. That is pathetic beyond words.

I suppose every other Republican voting business owner should be on the lookout for a visit from Fish and Wildlife, then.

Sound the alarm, ye alarmists!





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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 1:19:49 AM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

sanity fare quoted:

quote:


Cross an international border with an instrument made of that now-restricted wood, and you better have correct and complete documentation proving the age of the instrument.




Which fulfills three requirements of  his for bothering to read an article in the first place, and then posting it here, those being that; a) the article or story must have at least some part of it that is factually in error, b) (much preferred) be an op-ed piece such as this one that selectively relates  a real fact to be followed up by a purely fatuous opinion (the above quote) which the writer knows full well will be read as 'fact' by the target audience (such as the OP), and c) after all that, still no proper comprehension of either the fact or the opinion, aside from inability to distinguish in the first place.


Professional and amateur musicians take their instruments across borders all the time, every day, Brazilian rosewood  and African or Ebony parts of guitars included.

You can buy a new guitar today made with Brazilian vs. (currently legally harvested) Indian rosewood back and sides if you have the $2-4,000 extra for that option. That is because such luthiers have  stocks of the wood that was harvested before it became illegal.

ALL the prominent acoustic guitar makers have it along with most of the boutique and individual luthiers.

And I can absolutely guarantee that they are not all Democratic or all Republican voters, being that the few that I've known actually have no use for any of it.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/29/2011 1:30:14 AM >

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 3:47:29 AM   
Sanity


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An opinion piece, in the WSJ, quoting experts:

quote:

John Thomas, a law professor at Quinnipiac University and a blues and ragtime guitarist, says "there's a lot of anxiety, and it's well justified." Once upon a time, he would have taken one of his vintage guitars on his travels. Now, "I don't go out of the country with a wooden guitar."


The tangled intersection of international laws is enforced through a thicket of paperwork. Recent revisions to 1900's Lacey Act require that anyone crossing the U.S. border declare every bit of flora or fauna being brought into the country. One is under "strict liability" to fill out the paperwork—and without any mistakes.


It's not enough to know that the body of your old guitar is made of spruce and maple: What's the bridge made of? If it's ebony, do you have the paperwork to show when and where that wood was harvested and when and where it was made into a bridge? Is the nut holding the strings at the guitar's headstock bone, or could it be ivory? "Even if you have no knowledge—despite Herculean efforts to obtain it—that some piece of your guitar, no matter how small, was obtained illegally, you lose your guitar forever," Prof. Thomas has written. "Oh, and you'll be fined $250 for that false (or missing) information in your Lacey Act Import Declaration."

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique Bösendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork—which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.


There was never any question that the instruments were old enough to have grandfathered ivory keys. But Mr. Vieillard didn't have his paperwork straight when two-dozen federal agents came calling.


Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.


And what does the little moron ed offer, nothing other than his own worthless opinion... 








< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/29/2011 3:48:36 AM >


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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 4:04:11 AM   
Aneirin


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One thing I have come to understand about civil laws is that they are never clear cut, but intentionally ambiguous so there will always be need of a paid other to interpret the law in which ever way suits the purpose, therefore civil law is a cash generating scam.

Furthermore the suggestion of a requirement for documentation to prove authenticity or other involves what, yeah, money again, one will have to pay to receive protection from the laws that are not clear cut.

My question is, is what we are seeing more about generating money, a new industry perhaps, where the result is we must fear our own authority, has the authority we have given others come back to bite us in the ass ?

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 4:22:42 AM   
Lucylastic


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The Lacey Act combats trafficking in “illegal” wildlife, fish, and plants. The 2008 Farm Bill (the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008), effective May 22, 2008, amended the Lacey Act by expanding its protection to a broader range of plants and plant products. The Lacey Act now, among other things, makes it unlawful, beginning December 15, 2008, to import certain plants and plant products without an import declaration. This page will serve as a clearinghouse for all information related to the implementation of the Lacey Act declaration requirement and will be updated promptly as new information becomes available.

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RE: Enviro-Nazis Raid Guitar Shop - 8/29/2011 4:26:04 AM   
Lucylastic


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Also on the actual declaration there is a section at the bottom of the PDF form
which states
Description of the Merchandise: Enter the name of the plant or plant product, and its use (example: wooden spoons for kitchenware). If the use is unknown, enter only the name of the product(example: lumber). If the product is protected under CITES also input CITES permit number here. If product was manufactured prior to the Lacey Act Amendment also input "Manufactured Prior to May 22, 2008".


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