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Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 5:37:55 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		I often write about the chasm between left and right, and the lack of compromise between them. I'll admit to not being the most politically astute, given that most of my life, I ignored politics. So often when a topic arises, and links are poured out across the messages, I end up not just reading them, but going back and reading all types of posts, stories, blogs and editorials related to whatever is being argued. What I find isn't just a separation of ideas, but reams of items posted as facts, often that directly contradict the same items the other side has used as factual basis for their side of the debate. Along with positions that are diametrically opposed to each other, are mountains of derision and anger.

Elections seem more about one side or the other gaining enough traction to force their agenda on the other. Along with that has come a wildly swinging pendulum that jerks left, then right in rejection of both sides. Think about it, Dems controlled congress for years until Clinton managed to thrust his own lack of personal responsibility into the limelight and give Republicans control. Bush came along and managed to give Congress back to the Democrats. Next on stage, Obama, who gave rise to a huge backlash that gave Republicans control of Congress again.

I travel all the time and deal with people all across the country. Everywhere I go, people are disenchanted with the system, and feel disenfranchised by it. That's most apparent in those who feel under the control of the other side, but independents too are coming across as having lost all trust in both parties.  A large part of the issue is that many feel the parties are too shackled by their base, where those segments of the population will never be able to reach enough common ground to compromise. That's echoed I think by politicians heading more towards middle ground during elections. They like to give the appearance of being a moderate even if their record lands then squarely on one side or the other.

So the question is, assuming we have two segments of the population that will never be able to compromise, whose attacks on each other will remain virulent, and honestly, can't stand each other, where do you think we're headed as a nation?  I have called the gap our new Civil war before, where the winner will decide how you live. The truth is though, that the sides are pretty evenly split. Neither can do so without years of bruising political and social battles.

We are a nation divided in many ways. Where do you think it is going, and is it a good thing or not?



< Message edited by StrangerThan -- 8/28/2011 6:05:50 AM >

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 6:44:08 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		We are seeing a shift.  Politics used to be about getting things done.  If it meant you had to work with an SOB, you did. You cut deals, added pork, twisted arms.

Now nobody cares about getting things done.  The goal is reelection.  Unfortunately, the surest road to reelection is blackening the other guy.  Republicans are running on the idea of repealing Obamacare and on blocking legislation, not on working to get the best deal possible passed.  Each believes that no bill is better than a bill that he or she has an issue with.  Hell, Huntsman's record of actually being able to work with Dems to get things done, is being viewed as a liability because people believe that partisan intransigence is a high virtue. The world's gone nuts.



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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 7:18:51 AM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Left-right paradigm is a distraction. World is not black and white. The question could be how it has (been) developed? Who do most elected officials really serve? Politics today is too much about personal financial gain, or in other words, the government is corrupt to the bone. Inevitably, nothing good will not come out of the current system for the masses. Both Democrats and Republicans forget their promises immediately after being elected into the office. W. Clinton was a corporatist scam artist. G.W. Bush was big spender, a characteristic usually attached to a Democrat president. Obama is characterized a neocon because of his actions. The last is hard believe. For clarity, It would be useful to study, what is he really in charge of, and who is running the system? The members of Congress in majority are similar story, but out of sight. Simple study how their family wealth increases when in office and afterward would tell the story.  If the system is not changed, the violent revolution is on horizon and it will not be left against right. Rather it will be lumpen (who are not getting anything any more) against oligarchy as usual.  

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 7:19:39 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with Steven but there is quite a bit of difference in the two parties at least as a measure of their respective 'beliefs' and agendas. I was brought up in a republican home where many learn 'their' politics but not all of which was necessarily in opposition to everything from the dems. They were a pragmatic relatively humble and staid Midwestern kind of conservatism. This was counter too the southern racists 'Dixiecrat' allegedly progressive democrats but for almost a century...backed Jim Crow laws and showed a fiscal ignorance.

By the time LBJ pushed Civil rights...the repubs assumed the role.

There has been a very big sea-change in the repubs at they much more seemed concerned with the business class as opposed to the country as a whole. Then their rhetoric has changed and pragmatism is out-the-door. Words become deliberately misused by many and their pundits and as I have said, this is NOT your father's repub party. It has been swept up in the political consultancies that push division, fringe, emotional issues regardless of policy...to get elected at all costs.

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:26:43 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		It is a natural outcome of a two-party system. There is no room for shades, it is black/white, us/them, there are no other options. As well American politics has always been tainted with worship. Americans don't support a candidate, they are followers and believers. Just look at the drivel spouted by the demented duo in the Ron Paul thread.

Many Americans seem to disengage their brains when dealing with matters political. In Canada, our present Prime Minister is a very right wing conservative with many aims and policies with which I disagree, but even though I am an ardent socialist and NDP supporter, I do not hate the man, and in fact will readily admit that he is indeed an effective Prime Minister who handled the financial meltdown very well and has kept Canada from feeling any real pain from it or its aftermath. I won't vote for him, but I also won't go around claiming he is an idiot, or evil, or any similar twaddle, the likes of which generally pass for political debate in the U.S.

There seems to be an inability to accept that somebody can disagree with one politically and still be a sane, sensible, decent person. This isn't however, a particularly new phenomenon in American politics. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that your system is one of continuous electioneering, no sooner does a candidate win an election than they begin running for the next one. Instead of reasoned political debate, what you get is campaign rhetoric.

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:39:35 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		That's a very curious question Strangerthan. You and I have battled it out on scores of threads in the past. Each taking a side that we were passionate about. Yes, we put up reams of facts and theory (scientific mostly). And we have gotten so angry as to come nearly to blows. Its nice to see someone from the conservative side of the political....chasm....say "Hey, this chasm is five feet wider today...". Its like a story back during World War One, in which a French and German soldier dive into the same artillery crater together. After the inital kill/be killed was over, they found after talking how much they really had in common. They liked to fish, hunt and the pretty girls in both countries.

Both sides really do blame the other for creating the rift and for making it larger each day for political gain. Both sides have their 'Rooks', 'Knights', 'Bishops' and 'Queens'. Along with a never ending horde of 'pawns'. And we battle on a 'chessboard' that is 'checker-boarded' in color. But not in Black & White, but Red & Blue. A regular chess board has sixty-four spaces, while ours is fifty. And each election is a battle for supremacy, long throwing away the purpose of being elected (get....shit...done). Even once elected, it all becomes 'plotting for the next election'.

However, not everyone is about the election or the next election. Some on both sides actually try to represent not just the ones that voted for them, but the ones that didnt. As one could imagine, it goes unnoticed by those that didnt vote for them. Still, there are some on each side that battle a losing battle to keep America a good nation. I believe Mr. Obama is one such person, but is starting to become the very thing he went to Washington to fight. Most of them that do, eventually become that very thing these days, as the will to 'fight the system and make it better' is such a hopeless endeavor. While 'Going with the Flow' is so much more inviting. Ironically I'm against term limits as it were. As I sense the whole thing would largely become a circus rather than putting any real limits that help America in the long run. If there was one of those folks that still believes Congress could yet be a really good thing for America, would you want that person removed because their at the limit of terms served?

We as a nation talk about campaign finance reform but it never moves beyond petty arguements. After each election, the losing side bitchs up a storm about how the other side used all sorts of underhand tactics to win. And that whips people up in to a frenzy for a time. Unfortunately the politicans sneak out the back of said rally to prepare for the next election and leave the common Americans milling about. I'm sure we all see the political side we oppose as to creating secret organizations to funnel money to their election campaigns, and creating false images/icons of the guy/gal we want to see in office. And many of us overlook when or candidate (or ourselves) do the same exact thing.

The partisan has gotten so deep that within the last three years we witness how things will play out going forward (unless something good is done about it). For Democrats to past the American Affordable Care Act of 2010 (that's 'Obamacare' to most of you), had to virtually pass said bill by stomping the opposition out of existance. Because if neither side controls the White House and Congress...NOTHING...is going to get done. Is that how we as Americans want our country to operate?

During this Budget Crsis, there was virtually no 'give & take' involve. Democrats begrudging offered up more spending cuts while Republicans did not raise taxes on anyone by a penny. It was like watching a game of 'Texas Hold 'em'. But unlike the normal version of the game, in this version the Republicans had to have their own two cards (the two you recieve at the start of a round), face up. This lead to absolutely no wiggle or squirming room on the part of Republicans. And neither side was going to fold their cards. So yes, a 'pair of sevens' on the Democrats side was still beating the 'Three and Five' Republicans held when the final fifth card was drawn to show neither side could improve their 'hand'. Even after that, when 'another round' of betting would take place, Republicans just stalled. Is that really how we as Americans want to deal with national issues going forward?

I don't have the 'silver bullet' method of breaking this 'rust' that has built up over the last three decades, nor the 'car on its final wheel'. But than, I dont think anyone else does either. Many try, and they all fail. Taking an action that one believes will benefit their side only makes the situation worst. Taking the 'Short Term Victory' and giving the shaft to 'Long Term Good'. But I do worry this nation is headed for the sort of civil war that will make the last one look like a tea party (that's an expression, and not mocking/referencing the actual Tea Party). A great many of our fellow Americans will be slaughtered. Parts of our great and wonderful nation will be sundered for years if not decades. Will it really matter who wins in the conflict? Not really. The nation we once knew will be long gone, replaced with the winner's viewpoint of how things should be. If you need an idea, imagine what a Liberal Nanny State might look like (if your conservative) or a Conservative Nanny State (if your liberal). Not a pleasent sight, eh?

One thing I do see that would help, is if American gave alittle more respect towards elected officals. Calling them petty and/or childish names simply undermines the goverment. If your not willing to give someone fair respect, why should they give respect back to you? To that end, I try to give the proper title and name to people I discuss. I do not like Rep. Michelle Bachmann or former President George W. Bush, but I do not call them names like a twelve year old child. Be nice if people would do the same.

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 9:23:42 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

It is a natural outcome of a two-party system. There is no room for shades, it is black/white, us/them, there are no other options. As well American politics has always been tainted with worship. Americans don't support a candidate, they are followers and believers. Just look at the drivel spouted by the demented duo in the Ron Paul thread.

Hey assfuck,

It's called passion, you know, like that socialist shit you push and love so much. I haven't been "following" any form of politics for 20 years so don't pretend you know a fucking thing about my life and especially why I do the things I do because as usual, you're about as far off as your grasp on your mental state.

I SUPPORT Ron Paul after not supporting anyone for most of my life for the white house.

Dumbass.


_____________________________

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 9:54:17 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline 		I've always hated politics and despised talking bout it just as much. never considered myself one way or another when it came to Dems and Repubs. I much more prefer a more even line down the middle but neither side offers than in real action. They talk about whatever they think will, get them in office and then flip once they are there. I've watched this little dance for over 20 years now and I'm sick of it.

Some of the biggest issues for me have always been war, big government and individual freedoms (The last two just don't go together well).. Individual freedoms are a big selling point for me and none of the fuckers offer that.

None of those are good for America or any nation for that matter and unfortunately, no matter which party you pick these days, that's what you get.. Big government, war and loss of liberty.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:03:56 PM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline 		A more precisely illustrative example I could not have wished for. I knew you'd be along to prove me right, you usually do. Thank you.


_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:12:58 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

A more precisely illustrative example I could not have wished for. I knew you'd be along to prove me right, you usually do. Thank you.

Take another pill... Your voices are telling you, you're right again.




_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:16:10 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

It is a natural outcome of a two-party system. There is no room for shades, it is black/white, us/them, there are no other options. As well American politics has always been tainted with worship. Americans don't support a candidate, they are followers and believers. Just look at the drivel spouted by the demented duo in the Ron Paul thread.

Hey assfuck,

It's called passion, you know, like that socialist shit you push and love so much. I haven't been "following" any form of politics for 20 years so don't pretend you know a fucking thing about my life and especially why I do the things I do because as usual, you're about as far off as your grasp on your mental state.

I SUPPORT Ron Paul after not supporting anyone for most of my life for the white house.

Dumbass.




Someone needs to get laid. ;)

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:22:16 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

A more precisely illustrative example I could not have wished for. I knew you'd be along to prove me right, you usually do. Thank you.

Take another pill... Your voices are telling you, you're right again.



No, Icky, he's nailing it.  If it's the voices, then they are sharper than you, too.



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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:23:52 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Someone needs to get laid. ;)

Is that what life boils down to most of you? Sex? lol

Nah, he's too fucking moronic to see that he came to a thread that didn't ask for political discussion. Not one question was asked by the Op.

PA posted that to most likely celebrate and support... The majority of that posting I did was to fuck with the idiots trying to turn it into something negative.. They try to do that ya know especially when they think I enjoy it. I've at times thrown something out just to see if they'd attack it and I'm never let down.. Unfortunately people are as transparent to me as the purest of waters.. I wish it wasn't so at times.




_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:27:04 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

No, Icky, he's nailing it. If it's the voices, then they are sharper than you, too.

What's he nailing? The fact that I support the guys message and I have thought the same things for 20 years? No, he thinks I'm following blindly, which I think is more about attacking than something he actually believes.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:38:14 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Someone needs to get laid. ;)

Is that what life boils down to most of you? Sex? lol

Nah, he's too fucking moronic to see that he came to a thread that didn't ask for political discussion. Not one question was asked by the Op.

PA posted that to most likely celebrate and support... The majority of that posting I did was to fuck with the idiots trying to turn it into something negative.. They try to do that ya know especially when they think I enjoy it. I've at times thrown something out just to see if they'd attack it and I'm never let down.. Unfortunately people are as transparent to me as the purest of waters.. I wish it wasn't so at times.


Ya mean there's something else other than sex???? :P

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 10:39:17 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Ya mean there's something else other than sex???? :P

Red Velvet Cake and Liberty. Both pretty damn good.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 11:10:16 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Ya mean there's something else other than sex???? :P

Red Velvet Cake and Liberty. Both pretty damn good.



:P

Brat.

'nuff said. *sweet smile*

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/28/2011 11:57:44 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
We are a nation divided in many ways. Where do you think it is going, and is it a good thing or not?

yes, the US is a nation divided and imo, its not going anywhere, imo it wont matter which of the two parties is in power.. Its going to bob around like it is now, the economy will get better for some but for others it will take longer for them to see it.. other countries will grow and move forward and at some point become a bigger economic threat to the US. Maybe in a decade (or two?), the US will have lost its position in the world, it will still be one of the powerful ones but imo it wont be the most powerful, just as the UK was the most powerful at one time and lost its place..

Amazing that you all can put a man on the moon but your politicians cant get your/their shit together to get the US outta this political & economic hole (it just keeps getting dug deeper)..

Jmo, of course, for what its worth..

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/29/2011 12:38:11 AM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan
We are a nation divided in many ways. Where do you think it is going, and is it a good thing or not?

yes, the US is a nation divided and imo, its not going anywhere, imo it wont matter which of the two parties is in power.. Its going to bob around like it is now, the economy will get better for some but for others it will take longer for them to see it.. other countries will grow and move forward and at some point become a bigger economic threat to the US. Maybe in a decade (or two?), the US will have lost its position in the world, it will still be one of the powerful ones but imo it wont be the most powerful, just as the UK was the most powerful at one time and lost its place..

Amazing that you all can put a man on the moon but your politicians cant get your/their shit together to get the US outta this political & economic hole (it just keeps getting dug deeper)..

Jmo, of course, for what its worth..


Personally, I think one can place a big chunk of the blame on the media, regardless of whether it's seen as "liberal" or "conservative" media. The media is contributing to the perceived divide in the USA. I can't help think that "the medium is the message" is exemplified by the modern media in terms of shaping political outlook in this country. By watching what is shown on television by political pundits, overall, one gets the impression they have to "pick a side". And why? Why do you have to be "this" or "that" in terms of your political views? I know my personal political beliefs don't fall neatly into any pre-defined political ideology out there and I doubt they ever will, which is why any time I have voted (not in this country, since I'm not a citizen), I've voted for the person, rather than the party. My hope (perhaps naive at times) is that the person will follow their beliefs and not always toe the "party" line. But even without the media influence on the political divide, there is still media influence in the sense that those in office will always have a concern for how their actions may play out in the media. So, it is my suggestion that it is the media in this country and elsewhere that wields political power.

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RE: Right vs Left - 8/29/2011 7:37:06 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		For me, the partisanship didn't explode on same stage as Obama, which is what I take from your post when you mention the last three years. Where it really seemed to ratchet upward was during Clinton's administration. I'm well aware of the fact there has always been partisan bickering and backstabbing, but the effort to destroy Clinton is where I noticed it really taking off.

It was horrendous during the Bush years, particularly after the invasion of Iraq. I spent a lot of time on political boards then and the acrimony was incredible. Obama is nothing more than the most recent target.

The real division predates most of them though, and comes I think from the battle over abortion. That one fight has solidified camps, strategies and tactics more than any other single issue that comes to mind. It is there that the ability to compromise, or even the desire to, died.  Not only did it drive people apart, it pushed them into camps where the idealism went beyond the central issue. If you supported the right to abortion, and voted that way, you by default began to vote for more and more left-leaning ideologies. If you didn't, you by default began to vote for more conservative stances. You had to. The parties set their core platforms along those lines, and in doing so allowed the fringe elements to gain significant control and strength.

Middle of the road voters were increasingly left with options that were not just unattractive, but downright ugly. Both sides played with the national psyche in atrocious ways, often using off-beat cases as poster children for sweeping legislative efforts that went far beyond the simple concept they portrayed. Both sides fought for legislative and judicial power. Both sides implemented a piece-meal approach to tackling issues by pushing laws at state levels rather than trying to overcome the issue at a federal level.

Out of that fight, both sides lost voters, even as they gained them. Independents became the fastest growing segment of voters in the country, so much so that presidential elections cannot be won without them. That, I think, is fortunate given that the need to appease independents is one of the few controls we have left. Elections have become a rejection, more so than an acceptance of both parties and their platforms. Witness that with the wide swings in Congress over the past 15 years, when Congress hadn't changed hands in what... 50 or 60 years before that?

What we have now are two platforms that have virtually nothing in common, media that serves one side or the other - and the bulk of the media squarely up the DNC's ass - and a people who can't stand the other. Fixing the country no longer matters. What matters is that neither side can let the other be right and that knife cuts left as much as it cuts right.

So, we have two sides that can't compromise, can't stand each other, and who are at war in terms of control. Outside of the diehards is a fairly large group of people who can't join either side in terms of platform because both contain elements that appeal, and are distasteful. Neither side will accept responsibility for anything.  Whatever the problem is, must be laid at the feet of the other.

Sooner or later we;re going to reach the point where the side in control, exercises their perceived mandate, and faces a significant social backlash. I don't see a civil war, but I do see serious discontent that boils over again and again, especially if the economy doesn't improve.



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