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RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 3:27:20 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

How about we exterminate the terminally stupid people on the planet.

I am talking about people who have an average to high IQ who do really stupid things, the people that they have to put warning labels on blow dryers advising folks not to use them in the shower, or the people who are the cause for a chainsaw warning "do not stop blade with hands or genitals."

Id settle for those that stopped the chainsaw with their genitals, sued and won, creating the need for the label.

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Post #: 21

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 3:36:52 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Hmmm. No. I don't particularly care whether you agree with me or not. Again, at the risk of repeating myself:

Feel free to move on if it doesn't interest you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
I would post this for anyone interested in informing themselves.

Translation:

I am going to bash you over the head with it until you agree with me.

Isn't that what you've been trying to do?

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 9/1/2011 3:41:03 PM >

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Post #: 22

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 3:44:07 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

One of the arguments against population control is who decides which group gets told, "You cannot have children" and which group gets told, "you can have children".

And zero population growth, as I understand it, says you and your partner can have a maximum of two children (your biological replacements) and no more. If you are infertile, you can adopt a biological replacement child, thus reducing the child surplus.

What penalties do you give to someone who has a child, despite the fact that they belong to a group who has been told "You cannot have children" or someone who already has their two legal children/replacements? The death penalty for the mother, the father and the child? The mother and father involuntarily sterilized and the (extra) child given to a infertile, childless couple to raise and be one of their biological replacements?

How about we increase the taxes on people who have more than 2? Or reduce/eliminate welfare for more than 2?

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Post #: 23

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 3:47:18 PM

lovmuffin

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Got it.....I guess you meant "the people that they have to put warning labels *for* on blow dryers advising folks not to use them in the shower , or the people who are the cause for a chainsaw warning "do not stop blade with hands or genitals."

Not that I would mind exterminating trial lawyers though......

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Post #: 24

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 3:56:39 PM

flcouple2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Hmmm. No. I don't particularly care whether you agree with me or not. Again, at the risk of repeating myself:

Feel free to move on if it doesn't interest you.

Or I could feel free to stay and point out that in several places you've tried to insist that anyone who doesn't view this as you do is just plain wrong.

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Post #: 25

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 4:01:22 PM

Termyn8or

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To OP, even though I have read the responses up to this point in time.

The situation will correct itself. It's been proven in many clinical trials with animals, and at least once on an island with deer. The deer were placed in an environment with ample food, so that was eliminated as a variable. The overcrowding that ensued resulted in glandular changes in the animals and after a few generations the problem was corrected.

The subjects became very hostile and competitive during the time the overpopulation was the worst. They suffered more disease, and a few were felled and disected, at which time(s) the glandular changes were noted. During that time the reseachers noted that they were very aggressive. After the correction, which is probably still not completely understood, the animals' demeanor returned to what had been considered normal before the study.

But what wasn't reported was whether some members of the herd engaged in preventing certain others from obtaining food, like humans do. Despite the abundance, the aggresive tendencies really could've resulted in many things, which were not observed because nobody stayed to watch. They dopped the subjects off and returned later.

Similar studies were done with rodents in a laboratory environment and in these cases the subjects' behavior was noted. Increased rate of homosexuality, rape gangs and theft of food and even offspring were noted. Note that I did not group these observations together, the author(s) of the article and/or researchers did.

I don't base my conclusions strictly on one article of course, it's obvious for one that people are slightly different than animals. But you can see it in different geographical areas. You can see it in my town where people just get on one another's nerves.

One of the goals of communism is to even out the population density (little known), and actually it makes sense. When people are too crowded together, it is no longer just a matter of food. Physical resources are only part of the problem because as we know there is plenty of food wasted. And it is quite possible that it should be.

The fact is that you can't cure hunger. If people live in an area that cannot support life the law of nature is that they die. If you send food they will reproduce and you will have increased the amount of suffering. Sad but true. Harsh ? Try that world with 16 billion peole on it. I certainly don't want to be there.

You want to colonize the moon or other planets, get on the motherfucker because it's alot of work. Our only chance is Mars right now and that's a pain in the ass because of the lack of gravity to keep a decent atmosphere. Live in domes ? Then you invite the same problems.

Unfortunately, although nobody wants to admit it, death is the answer. Not extinction, but death, death aplenty. Don't like it, move to Antarctica.

T^T

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Post #: 26

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 4:03:13 PM

Termyn8or

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"How about we increase the taxes on people who have more than 2? Or reduce/eliminate welfare for more than 2? "

Sorry Ken, you are going to have to reconsider that because I agree with you 100%.

T^T

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Post #: 27

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 4:18:36 PM

Iamsemisweet

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Sure, if that floats your boat. I'm afraid I'm not presumptuous enough to believe I am going to change anyone's mind in the P and R section. Not a lot of that going on, from what I can tell.

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Hmmm. No. I don't particularly care whether you agree with me or not. Again, at the risk of repeating myself:

Feel free to move on if it doesn't interest you.

Or I could feel free to stay and point out that in several places you've tried to insist that anyone who doesn't view this as you do is just plain wrong.

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 9/1/2011 4:27:23 PM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Post #: 28

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 6:15:40 PM

Termyn8or

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"Sure, if that floats your boat. I'm afraid I'm not presumptuous enough to believe I am going to change anyone's mind in the P and R section. Not a lot of that going on, from what I can tell. "

Absitively and posolutely, no question. The only possible good that can come from this is that some of us find some common ground. Good luck to you all because it is not likely for that to happen with me.

T^T

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Post #: 29

RE: Overpopulation - 9/1/2011 8:22:22 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

CM will not take these files because they are to big, and if I make them much smaller they will be illegible. Open them in a new window maximized and they should appear at 800 pixels wide. Unfortunately I don't have any really good OCR software right now, although some did come with my printer, screw it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page01.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page02.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page03.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page04.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page05.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page06.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29948706/page07.jpg

Page eight seems to be missing but I'll find it. And I wouldn't base an entire thesis on this either. It's just some data.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 9/1/2011 9:08:22 PM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 7:22:47 AM

Iamsemisweet

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Heard this argument before, Wilbur. What's your point? It is a resource issue not a space issue. And do you have any authority for your food wasted quote? Water is where the real problem lies.
Some of the other posters' visions of the world is so ...apocalyptic. Wars? Starvation? Being shaken off like fleas? How is that better than trying to deal with this issue rationally. Fortunately I am firmly a part of the "have" category, and will remain so. I still don't see how people can be so off hand about suffering and there will be a lot of suffering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The entire population of the world could live in Texas with 1,000 or more sf per person, and the current food wasted would support a 50% increase in world population. Im not worried just yet.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Post #: 31

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 7:45:54 AM

subrob1967

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Heard this argument before, Wilbur. What's your point? It is a resource issue not a space issue. And do you have any authority for your food wasted quote? Water is where the real problem lies.
Some of the other posters' visions of the world is so ...apocalyptic. Wars? Starvation? Being shaken off like fleas? How is that better than trying to deal with this issue rationally. Fortunately I am firmly a part of the "have" category, and will remain so. I still don't see how people can be so off hand about suffering and there will be a lot of suffering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

The entire population of the world could live in Texas with 1,000 or more sf per person, and the current food wasted would support a 50% increase in world population. Im not worried just yet.

When our government STOPS paying Farmers NOT to produce crops is when you might just have to worry about over population issues. This is a fear mongering non issue, just like man made global climate change.

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Post #: 32

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 7:50:21 AM

samboct

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There was a recent issue of Science - July 29, 2011 that covers this issue. The viewpoint of scientists looking at the problem has shifted over time, and is certainly very different from when Ehrlich wrote the Population Bomb. A quick summary- most of the worlds population is actually declining or stable with the exception of Africa and India. Yes, even China's population I think is contracting or will be soon. Furthermore, the period of rapid growth that saw the Earths population grow from 2.5 billion in 1950 to 6.1 billion in 2000 is slowing. By 2100, the population is forecast to be 10 billion- but that's a much lower growth rate than we saw previously. From a population of 7 billion in 2011, this is less than a 50% increase in 90 years.

Amazingly, I find myself sort of in agreement with Wilbur (and ST, but that's not quite so surprising). We've got other things to worry about other than population growth- and the verdict on family planning is actually rather mixed. If this is a topic near and dear to your heart, go check out the issue of Science.

Sam

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Post #: 33

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:08:08 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

I still don't see how people can be so off hand about suffering and there will be a lot of suffering.

fuck you, it isn't a question of not caring about suffering, its a question of right and wrong. none of your proposed actions will do a fucking thing without some law to enforce them, and that's when it becomes wrong.

it is none of your fucking business how many kids a person has. got it? none of your fucking business. to paraphrase the idiot teabagger sign: keep your government hands out of my womb.

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Post #: 34

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:17:17 AM

Iamsemisweet

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You are wrong. The proposal I have cited to is absolutely not coercive, again, it has to do with education and improving quality of life and opportunities for women. What a crazy idea! Not legislating how many kids people can have. And if you really believe people can't act rationally without laws to force them to do so, you might want to reconsider the whole anarchy thing.
Oh, and fuck you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

I still don't see how people can be so off hand about suffering and there will be a lot of suffering.
fuck you, it isn't a question of not caring about suffering, its a question of right and wrong. none of your proposed actions will do a fucking thing without some law to enforce them, and that's when it becomes wrong.

it is none of your fucking business how many kids a person has. got it? none of your fucking business. to paraphrase the idiot teabagger sign: keep your government hands out of my womb.

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Post #: 35

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:29:34 AM

LaTigresse

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As long as there are human beings there will be suffering. It's part of free will and not many people are going to be thrilled about having their free will removed more than already is.

I am the eldest of six children. The reality is that neither of my parents should have been parents. They were not able to care for themselves properly let alone six kids.

Yet, when you look at how those six kids have reproduced, right now we are ahead of the game. I had two kids and my ex had no others, Generic dude and his ex only had the one........three for three. My oldest brother, he and his wife just had one.........one for two. My oldest sister had two........two for two. The next brother, fathered four and his wife has one. His ex still just had the two and his wife's ex just had the one. So six for five. The next brother has fathered none, his wife had two, her ex has had no more, three for two. My youngest sister has had one, her ex only that one, and her current none. Three for one. She would like another but I don't see it happening.

Of all six of us, I am the only one with grands. My kids are doing pretty good and not creating a population growth also.

I am beginning to see a trend in smaller families........except, in some cases, with those that have money enough or the very poor and stupid.

Either way, you simply cannot legislate something so personal as family and reproduction. If we as a species fuck ourselves over then so be it. Perhaps we are not supposed to be around forever.

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RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:33:43 AM

HannahLynHeather

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quote:

The proposal I have cited to is absolutely not coercive, again, it has to do with education and improving quality of life and opportunities for women.

won't fucking work. they have been doing that shit for 40 years and the population has grown more than ever. see you are the one who is wrong.

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Post #: 37

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:36:49 AM

Iamsemisweet

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No one is saying you should, but I don't think extinction is the only alternative. Your story about your family is similar to mind, and it shows what I have been saying. You live in a place where women have alternatives other than endless child bearing and have access to contraceptives. Hence, they have smaller families. That is exactly the solution that the report I cited proposes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Either way, you simply cannot legislate something so personal as family and reproduction. If we as a species fuck ourselves over then so be it. Perhaps we are not supposed to be around forever.

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Post #: 38

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 8:45:45 AM

LaTigresse

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I agree......giving women an education and adequate health care is key. BUT, I disagree that it is any sort of government responsibility.

This is where 'the haves' need to put their money where their mouths are and create the organizations that provide these things across boundaries. Many do and it needs to continue. Only through education will many of our world problems be solved. It is through ignorance and lack of education that horrible dictator governments thrive. In many cases, it is the citizens of those countries that have to suffer enough, get angry enough, and demand, TAKE the education and control that they feel they need.

My feelings are best summed up in the idea that you really cannot do it for them. They have to want it badly enough to do it for themselves. The only saying of 'you can lead a horse to water.....' is true. I also feel that, in many cases, if people have not worked for it, gotten it for themselves, they will not value it.

How many women of a third world country, where women and children have no rights, where the governments are raping them, their country, entire people.........will watch their children die, their daughters get raped, their sons get killed, before they get angry enough to fight back? If they are not willing to fight, who's responsibility is it?

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 9/2/2011 8:47:41 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Overpopulation - 9/2/2011 9:54:20 AM

Fightdirecto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
How about we increase the taxes on people who have more than 2?

Selfishness, and it's cousin greed, are two of the strongest motivators in human beings.

For the third, fourth, fifth child, etc. in a family, an increase of 5% per child on their federal and state income taxes and no deductions for the third, fourth, fifth child, etc. in a family. The only exception would be if the child was an orphan they had adopted.

People will do anything, even get themselves sterilized to keep from having more than 2 children, if they thought they could make a buck or save on their taxes doing so.

Strangely enough, that may be the one way to make population control work.

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 9/2/2011 10:18:04 AM >

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