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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 3:43:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Thanks for confirming my original guess about you trying to hijack your own thread, Ken. 

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 3:48:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carried interest involves no risk.


Bullshit

Where's the risk? It is strictly the profit of the fund. The hedge fund siphons off a couple of percent of the money invested as the official management fee so the manager is going to make income no matter what. Therefore carried interest is completely risk free. The only risk would be if the manager was to invest in the fund which is not required.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 3:52:59 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Thanks for confirming my original guess about you trying to hijack your own thread, Ken. 

WTF are you blathering about? You dismissed the essay with a series of handwaves. You flat out denied that the republicans cared more about protecting the mega wealthy than anything else until I proved it to you which you then ignored.

You tried to hijack the thread by accusing the Obama administration of war mongering equivalent to the GOP. Now that I've debunked that nonsense the above non sequitur is your total response.

Your intellectual bankruptcy is showing.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 4:20:56 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Going after terrorists where ever they hide does not compare to an imperialistic invasion of a nation that had not attacked us.


What the fuck do you think Drone and Navy Seal attacks in Pakistan are? Nitwit! Invasions of a country that had nothing to do with September 11 2001 attacks... God, how do you live with such a handicapped brain?

Pakistan supports Terrorists, Iraq supported Terrorists,  a few drones, and special forces invades Pakistan to kill Tango's... Our Army, and Marine Corps invade Iraq and killed Tango's...it's the same fucking thing, only on a different scale.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 9/4/2011 4:23:14 PM >


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 4:23:32 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Better written than the usual truthout tripe. That doesnt make it any less an ideological hatchet job devoid of facts. Everything he says about the GOP can be said about the donkeys, in spades.



And that makes it all untrue.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 4:41:48 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You dismissed the essay with a series of handwaves. You flat out denied that the republicans cared more about protecting the mega wealthy than anything else until I proved it to you which you then ignored.

You tried to hijack the thread by accusing the Obama administration of war mongering equivalent to the GOP. Now that I've debunked that nonsense the above non sequitur is your total response.

Your intellectual bankruptcy is showing.


WTF is right, Ken.  Are you responding to a thread in your own head, or something (maybe what you dreamed it would be when you clicked "new post," and before I showed up)?  It's not my fault you decided to start with something thin, vaporous, intellectually dishonest and probably completely self-serving from the author.  I've already referred you back to post 13, and how I addressed his "all for the rich," fail, twice now. 

I understand your desire now to make this about anything except where you started it.  You certainly don't want to address how voting Republican has worked out for the aims of the fundies, and you certainly wouldn't want to get near the cronyism that has been the mark of the administration in how they prefer to use taxation as policy.

Do keep in mind though that I might well have bookmarked your cheerleading of Obama's illegal war, to toss out when you want to squeal about a future Republican not obeying all the forms of the War Powers Act.  Maybe if you guys all turn nasty enough, the thread will get pulled, and you'll be safe. 

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 5:00:49 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carried interest involves no risk.


Bullshit

Carried interest is an Orwellian term. It changes the meaning of the word income and only for tax purposes. Go figure, I carry all of my interests...never dropped one yet and still...I could pay 35% on my oh ya'know...pedestrian regular income.

It then changes the tax rate of their income which in reality is not any different than your income. They just threw all of that precious free speech (cash) at the repubs to get not a 20 but a 15% tax rate. It is the same rate as something called 'capital gains' and stock dividends income, whatever that is but hey...congress is for sale alright.

Just another great example of America's...great civil and financial values. I don't care what the fucking risk is. Are they risking their fucking lives like say on an oil platform or deep down in a coal mine...hardly. No they risk something much more imprtant in America than your life...their capital. Wow aren't just super greedy, capitalist scum...er heroes ?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/4/2011 5:03:02 PM >

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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 9:55:11 PM   
tweakabelle


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Interesting piece ... a plague on both your houses.

I did like the way this life long Right winger dissected the manner in which genuine democrats and Constitutionalists on the Right have lost control to the loonies.

Behind the the looney Right agenda (so often advanced here by Willbur, ABM, TheHeretic and a few others) he exposes the infinite greed of the super-rich, the lies, the delusions, hate, phobias, paranoia and insecurities - in short clinical insanity - so evident in the posts of looney Right here. And when push comes to shove, an uncompromising, overtly anti-democratic promotion of the interests of the super-rich over all others. It's all reminiscent of Weimar Germany in many significant ways - and we all know how that ended up.

All of it aided and abetted by a Left devoid of a vision since the fall of the Berlin Wall. It could well be that the Left's failure to develop a counter-narrative to the billionaire-friendly neo-liberal market economics that has allowed the looney Right to attain its position of dominance (one can see this phenomenon internationally - look at New Labor in the UK or the ALP here). This failure has left the Left floundering even as the Right concedes the Centre ......

The Left's failure to come to terms with the radical implications of any workable alternative to the myths, the false promises, the impossible unsustainability of neo-liberalism needs re-consideration. There is an urgent need to develop a sophisticated economic narrative to contest neo-liberal market economics. There is a critical need to contest, question and abandon this vicious discourse immediately. Failure to accomplish this may lead to unthinkably vile consequences.

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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 10:06:14 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
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_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 10:15:48 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You dismissed the essay with a series of handwaves. You flat out denied that the republicans cared more about protecting the mega wealthy than anything else until I proved it to you which you then ignored.

You tried to hijack the thread by accusing the Obama administration of war mongering equivalent to the GOP. Now that I've debunked that nonsense the above non sequitur is your total response.

Your intellectual bankruptcy is showing.


WTF is right, Ken.  Are you responding to a thread in your own head, or something (maybe what you dreamed it would be when you clicked "new post," and before I showed up)?  It's not my fault you decided to start with something thin, vaporous, intellectually dishonest and probably completely self-serving from the author.  I've already referred you back to post 13, and how I addressed his "all for the rich," fail, twice now. 

I understand your desire now to make this about anything except where you started it.  You certainly don't want to address how voting Republican has worked out for the aims of the fundies, and you certainly wouldn't want to get near the cronyism that has been the mark of the administration in how they prefer to use taxation as policy.

Do keep in mind though that I might well have bookmarked your cheerleading of Obama's illegal war, to toss out when you want to squeal about a future Republican not obeying all the forms of the War Powers Act.  Maybe if you guys all turn nasty enough, the thread will get pulled, and you'll be safe. 


This is the relevant part of your post # 13, Heretic:
"First, that the Republicans care only about the interests of the rich. No. If we want to view things that way, we would have to say that the Repubs care only about the interests of the working rich, the ones still out there producing, building and manufacting, while the Dems only look at the cares and hobbies of the old money and idle rich, the limousine liberals, who step over the homeless man, and quiet the guilt by thinking, "there ought to be a government program." Yes, the horror of Republicans wanting the tax rates low for everyone, while the Democrats prefer the loophole, the subsidy, the bailout, the waiver, and the bad half-billion dollar loan, only to those they deem worthy."

It consists of a a few blatantly false claims (eg that the Dems NOT the Reps defend the tax loopholes of the super-rich) entwined with ideologically-driven garbage (eg. Dems only look at the cares and hobbies of the old money and idle rich, the limousine liberals, who step over the homeless man, and quiet the guilt by thinking, "there ought to be a government program.) and repetition of nonsensical waffle (see the last sentence in particular)

It is intellectual gibberish - it doesn't contain a single relevant FACT; it is full of wild partisan claims, not one of the them supported by evidence of any sort, not even the most tenuous; it doesn't pretend to advance a considered argument. It makes no serious attempt to examine the argument you claim it opposes. In short, pure vapid partisan rhetoric.

If this is your idea of refuting an argument, then best you follow Don Quixote's example and confine yourself to arguing with windmills. On the evidence above, that would be an argument between intellectual equals.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/4/2011 10:22:05 PM >


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 11:04:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Actually, it was post #14, Tweak.  See what I get for taking Jo's word about even the smallest of things?

I operate on the assumption that those I'm addressing have at least a passing knowledge of the news of the day, and some shreds of short term memory still working, but I'll guess a fair bit of our news doesn't make it to your part of the world.  Which example do you need a link to?  Waivers?  Subsidies?  John Kerry parking his yacht out of state to avoid the taxes?  Surely you got something on the bailouts down there?  The half billion on a maybe-shady loan that went bad might be a little obscure for some right now, but that story is just getting started.

Now the limousine liberal reference is certainly a broad caricature, but it is from a very real face in our political scene. 

I referenced quite a few facts.  The interpretation is my own.

I'm off to bed, enjoy your day.  Are you seeing signs of spring yet?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 11:15:50 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Going after terrorists where ever they hide does not compare to an imperialistic invasion of a nation that had not attacked us.


What the fuck do you think Drone and Navy Seal attacks in Pakistan are? Nitwit! Invasions of a country that had nothing to do with September 11 2001 attacks... God, how do you live with such a handicapped brain?

Pakistan supports Terrorists, Iraq supported Terrorists,  a few drones, and special forces invades Pakistan to kill Tango's... Our Army, and Marine Corps invade Iraq and killed Tango's...it's the same fucking thing, only on a different scale.


Iraq never had an Al Qaeda presence nitwit, until we dismantled the regime that kept them at bay.

So you tell me, is Iraq a lesser threat now?





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/4/2011 11:20:43 PM >

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/4/2011 11:43:23 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Actually, it was post #14, Tweak.  See what I get for taking Jo's word about even the smallest of things?

I operate on the assumption that those I'm addressing have at least a passing knowledge of the news of the day, and some shreds of short term memory still working, but I'll guess a fair bit of our news doesn't make it to your part of the world.  Which example do you need a link to?  Waivers?  Subsidies?  John Kerry parking his yacht out of state to avoid the taxes?  Surely you got something on the bailouts down there?  The half billion on a maybe-shady loan that went bad might be a little obscure for some right now, but that story is just getting started.

Now the limousine liberal reference is certainly a broad caricature, but it is from a very real face in our political scene. 

I referenced quite a few facts.  The interpretation is my own.

I'm off to bed, enjoy your day.  Are you seeing signs of spring yet?

I do agree that your posts consist of nothing other than caricature, wild claims ("interpretation") intellectual garbage and (usually between the lines but often overt) worryingly significant signs of chronic mental disturbances. Nice of you to concede your intellectual bankruptcy but really, what choice had you got?

If you feel you're up to it (I'd hate to strain such limited intellectual resources) you might like to link to some credible evidence to support, for example, this claim:
" the Dems only look at the cares and hobbies of the old money and idle rich, the limousine liberals, who step over the homeless man" which you insist is a "a very real face in our political scene". 
Please remember that your claim refers to Dems stepping over "homeless men", so no evidence about homeless women please. I must admit I am at a loss as to studies/evidence about the Dems attitude towards the "cares and hobbies of the old money and idle rich". But I'll keep an open mind until after I consider carefully such evidence as you present.

So I'm looking forward to seeing whatever evidence you can muster in support of that ..... If (and it's a very big 'If') you can find something to verify that. Of course in the absence of specific credible evidence, you'll leave us with no option other than concluding it's another one of your many ideologically-driven delusions.

Spring is wonderful here (as always) ty for asking



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/4/2011 11:52:02 PM >


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 1:16:50 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Iraq never had an Al Qaeda presence nitwit, until we dismantled the regime that kept them at bay.

So you tell me, is Iraq a lesser threat now?


Who said anything about Al Queda? Certainly not me, nor did GWB when he asked Congress to approve the Iraq war. Is Al Queda the only terrorist organization in your myopic little world?

Strawman thy name is rulemylife.

Funny thing is, Al Queda isn't in Libya either, but Obama get's a pass from you guys, even though he declared himself God, and chose to commit our forces without Congressional approval... Nope, you're the Nitwit, just like Kenny.

< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 9/5/2011 1:17:54 AM >


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 1:46:35 AM   
joether


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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And you don't think "libtard" is a cheap shot?

I think a jab about someone height, weight, or age is different. It's personal.

On the other hand, to be fair, I didn't check to see if he really is 60.



Its amusing when you wade into an arguement. You never do unless you believe your case is 'air tight'. Unfornately, this isn't one of those times. You hold your fellow conservatives to about as much accountibility and responsibility for their words and actions as you do for a squirrel with regards to the AACA of 2010. Your rather 'ok' with many of them calling fellow Americans 'libtards' with impunity.

Many of them routinely use as RML puts it 'a cheap shot' to undermine the messanger because they lack any real ammunition on the arguement. Rather than prsent a good arguement with supporting arguements to counter something a liberal (or in this case, a REAL conservative) has given, most conservatives seem only able to come up with a one or two line 'sound bites'.

Sort of like your typical posts, Kirata...


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 2:29:50 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Iraq never had an Al Qaeda presence nitwit, until we dismantled the regime that kept them at bay.

So you tell me, is Iraq a lesser threat now?

Who said anything about Al Queda? Certainly not me, nor did GWB when he asked Congress to approve the Iraq war. Is Al Queda the only terrorist organization in your myopic little world?


Did Congress declare war on Iraq under George W. Bush, subrob? I know it sounds like a silly question, but humor me.

The UK Ambassador to the USA's thoughts on 9/11 and Iraq.

Please, go on to youtube and look up 'Bush', 'Iraq' and 'Al Qaeda'. There's ALOT of videos in which Bush tried to link Iraq to Al Qaeda and later tried to lie about those same media converages. In fact, take out 'Bush' and insert 'Cheney' or 'Rumsfield'. There's even more evidence. Next you'll be trying to convience us that we didnt invade Iraq because of WMDs but to 'give the country to the people of Iraq'.


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 7:51:41 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carried interest involves no risk.


Bullshit

Where's the risk? It is strictly the profit of the fund. The hedge fund siphons off a couple of percent of the money invested as the official management fee so the manager is going to make income no matter what. Therefore carried interest is completely risk free. The only risk would be if the manager was to invest in the fund which is not required.



First, hedge fund managers almost universally invest in their own funds. It is part of the sales pitch that they have their own skin in the game. I listen to at least 6 pitches a quarter, usually 8 or 10, and its been years since I heard one that didnt include the general partners' investment in the fund and many where all of the firm's professional employees are required to invest a portion of their salaries in the funds.
Those that dont only earn carried interest when returns are above a hurdle rate, which is a margin above market returns in whatever asset class they are hedging. They have to take risk to exceed those market returns, and if they dont exceed the hurdle rate they dont earn the carried interest, and if they consistently underperform because they dont take risk they lose their clients.

Moreover the Baucus bill's enterprise tax provision plus OI treatment would result in carried interest being taxed at more than 50%, making them even worse than wages.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 9/5/2011 8:11:06 AM >


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RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 9:47:34 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


Carried interest involves no risk.


Bullshit

Where's the risk? It is strictly the profit of the fund. The hedge fund siphons off a couple of percent of the money invested as the official management fee so the manager is going to make income no matter what. Therefore carried interest is completely risk free. The only risk would be if the manager was to invest in the fund which is not required.



First, hedge fund managers almost universally invest in their own funds. It is part of the sales pitch that they have their own skin in the game. I listen to at least 6 pitches a quarter, usually 8 or 10, and its been years since I heard one that didnt include the general partners' investment in the fund and many where all of the firm's professional employees are required to invest a portion of their salaries in the funds.
Those that dont only earn carried interest when returns are above a hurdle rate, which is a margin above market returns in whatever asset class they are hedging. They have to take risk to exceed those market returns, and if they dont exceed the hurdle rate they dont earn the carried interest, and if they consistently underperform because they dont take risk they lose their clients.

Moreover the Baucus bill's enterprise tax provision plus OI treatment would result in carried interest being taxed at more than 50%, making them even worse than wages.

Why do I care what all of this entails ? First, I don't know who 'pitches' you on their derivatives but they are pretty stupid if they are in any way...a partnership. They invest depositor and corproate funds. With the Glass-Steagall 'reform' they can incorporate and blend or mix retail with investment funds and...suffer NO risk. Under-perform enough, taxpayers to the rescue, over perform, I keep 85%.. Are we rich yet kinkheads ?

To even suggest let alone pass laws that codify some arbitrary wording difference as applied to income is to suggest that free-market incentives are more then enough for me but the investor class needs that (immoral) tax incentive and the marketplace just isn't good enough. This purchased tax law through our plutocracy, completely disavowes the presumed equal opportunity of ALL people (earners) and its aledged equaility for more than 100 years of so-called capitalist/free-market theory. [sic]

The marketplace is supposed to be incentive enough for the great unwashed, capitalist proletariat, but oh no, for me to buy and sell paper, I need an additional incentive [sic] an immorally 70% lower tax rate than my own hard working salaried staff. That's why when you raise capital gains and carried interest...you create real growth and jobs. The Baucus bill is 30 years late. Paper profits should have been 50% back then. It dosen't serve the economy and hurts society.

Oh and that risk, we've seen the risk econosluts...there is no risk, if they fuck up, which they will greedily trying to make more, the taxpayer picks up the tab. Do not for a minute think you are going to convince me that the billions now being pulled in by wall street isn't directly as a result of good ole Uncle Sucker ready, willing and only too happy to once again...bailout those great captains of 'free-market' [sic] capitalism. [sic] It's all part of socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor.

Walll street, investment banking, paper-trading, capital gains, carried interest, futures...turning paper into money...the voraciously greedy and outsized returns all of which without risk, taxed at 15%...IS the essence of what is immoral about this country and capitalism...prima facie.

This country did just fine without any wall street, investment banks, without any fed and any income tax. That was called a free market...rememebr that ?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/5/2011 9:48:23 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 9:56:18 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Why do I care what all of this entails ? First, I don't know who 'pitches' you on their derivatives but they are pretty stupid if they are in any way...a partnership. They invest depositor and corproate funds. With the Glass-Steagall 'reform' they can incorporate and blend or mix retail with investment funds and...suffer NO risk. Under-perform enough, taxpayers to the rescue, over perform, I keep 85%.. Are we rich yet kinkheads ?



1, I dont give a fuck what you care about, and strange you would comment.

2, We are talking hedge funds, not derivatives, they are not synonymous.

3, You are quite simply wrong about structuring them as partnerships under current tax law being stupid.

4, Dont blame hedge funds for moral hazard, they didnt get bailed out, it wasnt their idea and they will never benefit from bailouts.

Adults are talking. Go back to your RPGs or whatever fantasy world you inhabit.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: An essay everyone should read - 9/5/2011 10:22:15 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
Iraq never had an Al Qaeda presence nitwit, until we dismantled the regime that kept them at bay.

So you tell me, is Iraq a lesser threat now?

Who said anything about Al Queda? Certainly not me, nor did GWB when he asked Congress to approve the Iraq war. Is Al Queda the only terrorist organization in your myopic little world?


Did Congress declare war on Iraq under George W. Bush, subrob? I know it sounds like a silly question, but humor me.

The UK Ambassador to the USA's thoughts on 9/11 and Iraq.

Please, go on to youtube and look up 'Bush', 'Iraq' and 'Al Qaeda'. There's ALOT of videos in which Bush tried to link Iraq to Al Qaeda and later tried to lie about those same media converages. In fact, take out 'Bush' and insert 'Cheney' or 'Rumsfield'. There's even more evidence. Next you'll be trying to convience us that we didnt invade Iraq because of WMDs but to 'give the country to the people of Iraq'.




Reading is fundamental... Your just mental, I never claimed Congress declared war on Iraq, I said GWB asked Congress's approval for our military to invade, and received it with the following resolution,... Rule is the one who brought up Al Queda, not me, I never said they were in Iraq, so once again, you show your lack of reading comprehension.

quote:


The resolution cited many factors to justify the use of military force against Iraq:[2][3] The resolution "supported" and "encouraged" diplomatic efforts by President George W. Bush to "strictly enforce through the U.N. Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq" and "obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion, and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq." The resolution authorized President Bush to use the Armed Forces of the United States "as he determines to be necessary and appropriate" in order to "defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Resolution

Arguing that Iraq was a threat is moot at this point don't you think? But IMO they were a lot more of a threat than Libya.



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