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Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 2:01:01 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Scenario:

Submissive who has been seen in regular attendance at several events and claims "x" # of active years in the lifestyle and identifies as a pain slut approaches a Dominant who they wish to scene with. Extensive negotiations take place and all that the scene will entail is discussed and consented to. The scene gets played out and is DM'd by experienced people. Dominant checks in frequently with submissive to make sure all is well. Scene seems to go nicely without a hitch, not an overly intense scene...middle of the road.

Day after submissive is not happy with how the scene went. Turns out that their experience in the lifestyle has been limited to attending events....but that they had never actually played. Did not relate this fact or stop scene for fear of looking foolish but now in hindsight feels that it all went farther than what they were capable of handling. Does not like the physical feelings and soreness of the day after and feels abused. Feels that trust was broken. Word spreads fast in community and there are some "intense" opinions. Reputations are on the line.

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 2:11:34 PM   
slaveofdarkhold


Posts: 124
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline 		Other than the obvious 'don't play with people you just met' and restricting yourself to people you know intimately... I would say there is no way to avoid it, at least on the part of the Dominant. You do everything you can, talking, negotiating, being cautious,checking on the sub, being honest and respecting any limits set. The sub has to do exactly the same, it's 50/50. I'd say in this situation (whether hypothetical or real, I'm not sure) the Dominant did everything he/she could and it was the sub's fault for not being honest and upfront, and for not stopping when needed to. I'm not saying a sub deserves to suffer like this, I would imagine it was a foolish mistake and probably taught a valuable lesson.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 2:12:38 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Scenario:

Submissive who has been seen in regular attendance at several events and claims "x" # of active years in the lifestyle and identifies as a pain slut approaches a Dominant who they wish to scene with. Extensive negotiations take place and all that the scene will entail is discussed and consented to. The scene gets played out and is DM'd by experienced people. Dominant checks in frequently with submissive to make sure all is well. Scene seems to go nicely without a hitch, not an overly intense scene...middle of the road.

Day after submissive is not happy with how the scene went. Turns out that their experience in the lifestyle has been limited to attending events....but that they had never actually played. Did not relate this fact or stop scene for fear of looking foolish but now in hindsight feels that it all went farther than what they were capable of handling. Does not like the physical feelings and soreness of the day after and feels abused. Feels that trust was broken. Word spreads fast in community and there are some "intense" opinions. Reputations are on the line.

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?



Sounds like a nightmare. The submissive is definitely in the wrong... but how to avoid that?? There was a great deal of negotiations and talking.... no alarms went off.
 
As far as damage control, perhaps that the submissive is a regular at events and surely has told a number of folks of their "experience", those that are in the know would not lay blame on the dominant.
 
I have zero interest in playing with anyone that isn't my partner, so this kind of scenario won't likely intrude on my life.

< Message edited by Level -- 5/21/2006 2:13:32 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 2:37:23 PM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		A person should never be afraid of looking silly if something is happening they are not sure of. She should of spoke up.

And she never should of represented herself as experinced if she's never done the play before.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:12:53 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Submissive who has been seen in regular attendance at several events and claims "x" # of active years in the lifestyle and identifies as a pain slut approaches a Dominant who they wish to scene with. Extensive negotiations take place and all that the scene will entail is discussed and consented to. The scene gets played out and is DM'd by experienced people. Dominant checks in frequently with submissive to make sure all is well. Scene seems to go nicely without a hitch, not an overly intense scene...middle of the road.

My very fist thought on this was:  If she had been seen in regular attendance at several events....has "anyone" ever seen her playing?  I can go to regular events, but you won't see me playing without Thorns.  His rule.

quote:

Day after submissive is not happy with how the scene went. Turns out that their experience in the lifestyle has been limited to attending events....but that they had never actually played. Did not relate this fact or stop scene for fear of looking foolish but now in hindsight feels that it all went farther than what they were capable of handling. Does not like the physical feelings and soreness of the day after and feels abused. Feels that trust was broken. Word spreads fast in community and there are some "intense" opinions. Reputations are on the line.

Here is a prime example of another thread called:  "Walk the walk or Talk the talk".  She is at fault. 

quote:

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck?

I understand that there were alot of negotiations going on....but like i said above...has "anyone" ever actually seen her play?  That would be a huge flag for me.  If i have never seen a person play, if i have never talked to another person that has seen that person play or played with her, i suppose i would have to examine whether or not i would take that risk.

quote:

Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?

Personally?  that girl would not be allowed back at the space to play.  The reason i say that is because something similar had happened a few years ago where i scened at.  The board of directors made the decision.

~smilezz~ 



_____________________________

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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:17:36 PM   
feastie


Posts: 1793
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		I have absolutely no interest in public play or playing with anyone but my dominant, this is a little out of my realm, but...

Common sense would dictate that negotiations include a third party, a moderator, if you will.  In this way, both the bottom and the top are protected, should there arise a need for an investigation.  It'd be even better if it could be written and signed, but that's not really practical, unless there is a generic form and the detailed bits are filled out and signed by the bottom, the top and a witness.  I am assuming that this play would have been public, but if not, that third party would also need to witness the scene.

If a stink arises, there is a witness to both the contract and the play.  That would eliminate the he said she said scenario.

_____________________________

Snarky and loving it.

Disclaimer: Any views expressed in any post are my opinions only. They may or may not be yours.

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:23:12 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?


We've had a similar experience, several years ago.   Master and I weren't involved in the scene, but it took place at our house, and we did get caught up in the fallout (people who weren't even there were actually telling people they'd seen what happened).  To you, I would say this:
 
Those who were in attendance at this event know what took place.  Those who watched the scene really know what took place.  If the dominant in question is known in the community, there are going to be people who know how that individual negotiates and plays.  That being said, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and there will always be those who are all too eager to believe the worst things about others.  However, those who matter will know the truth, and those with half a clue are going to see this alleged submissive for the idiot she is for proclaiming herself a pain slut without having any first-hand, real life experience to back it up.
 
Just my opinion. 

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:24:43 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz
My very fist thought on this was:  If she had been seen in regular attendance at several events....has "anyone" ever seen her playing? 


Nope...but in fairness I know quite a few people who I have never seen play publicly....at least not at events, although I have seen them play at private parties. At all of the events attended this submissive had always been there alone or was accompanied by a group of friends, some of whom did play, so it was assumed that the reason no one had seen them play was because they were simply without a play partner.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:31:55 PM   
Kindred2Evil


Posts: 227
Joined: 4/16/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with the submissive being at fault. But in the same breath, I can understand why she didn't say anything at the time.  Sometimes things just overwhelm those newbies.  It can happen to those with plenty of experience as well. 
As for dealing with the fallout, if there is council or leaders involved with the space or group where this played out, they need to bring in both parties and discuss it.  The submissive should be reprimanded over not telling the truth, the dominant to give their side.  Any witnesses would be helpful and by that I mean ones who actually saw what happened, not heard about it.
I had something similar happen at a party once.  We (hubby and I are) are very good friends with the operators of the group and this girl was fairly new there.  She kept going on and on about knife play and how she was such a knife slut yadda yadda yadda.  I asked her if she would like to play, negotiated out no cutting etc etc etc, then when it got down to it and I pulled a knife on her during the scene she spazzed out screaming blue murder like I had just tried to hold her up for her britches.  It was all the talk of the club for awhile and when the dust settled we both went to the owners and hashed out what had happened.  Luckily enough for me, hubby had been there during negotiations as had another impartial party.  The girl was banned from the next 3 events and told if she chose to come back she best have her stories straight about her experience and so on. 
It could turn into a HUGE mess if not dealt with properly, as you said reputations are on the line and it's tough to repair that kind of damage after the fact.

_____________________________

Her touch is on the breeze that brushes your cheek, Her voice rides the thunder as the storm breaks, Her tears will clean your heartache when the rains come, Her sun will light the darkest times when you feel alone...She is the Goddess.

(in reply to Evanesce)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:34:32 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Evanesce 
Those who were in attendance at this event know what took place.  Those who watched the scene really know what took place.  If the dominant in question is known in the community, there are going to be people who know how that individual negotiates and plays.  That being said, people are going to believe what they want to believe, and there will always be those who are all too eager to believe the worst things about others.  However, those who matter will know the truth, and those with half a clue are going to see this alleged submissive for the idiot she is for proclaiming herself a pain slut without having any first-hand, real life experience to back it up.
 
Just my opinion. 


Yup, I think this is exactly how these types of situations ultimately play out. It's too bad though that sometimes people of good intention and with good standing reputation get dragged through the mud though in the process. I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest with you. Sometimes even when you think you are crossing all of your t's and dotting your i's the final hard copy still ends up with a few overlooked flaws.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Evanesce)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 3:45:27 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		What an unfortunate situation.  My take on it is not unlike that of evanesce, in that anyone who knows the Dom and anyone who was there will know the truth.  I have to say that your tag lines say it all in this situation. 

_____________________________

Tress


"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother


(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 6:23:29 PM   
Dollbecky


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/22/2005
Status: offline 		Gods what a Nightmare! That poor Dom....I hope that he/she had a DM with them during negotiations and that DM backs them up .
Having a bad name in a bdsm community because of someone was confused (that me being charitable) would be awful :(
I only play with those who are vouchered for by club DMs etc I *hope* that will protect me  ...I would hope that that sort of confused person would be encouraged not to return to play events..
Gaf ....its just awful.


(in reply to yourMissTress)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 6:40:48 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		I don't play in public, but the very, very first thing that came to my mind was ... during the negotiations, did the dom actually ask "Have you done this, or this or this before?" or was it a negotiation that only was about what acceptable to be done in their particular scene?

Perhaps the questions about specific experiences and reactions were covered in the negotiation, I don't know.  Perhaps she lied.  But it wasn't clear to me just from the original post.

FHky


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to yourMissTress)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 9:57:08 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?


Knowing yourself and being honest with your play partner is how I would suggest avoiding something like this. Sub drop may also account for some of the animosity. Once the physical catches up with the mental and he doesn't call, write, love her in the morning bad feelings are common especially in the new. I would always recommend taking it easy on a newbie in play if they say they've been to 8 top out at 5-6. This story reminds me of the tale " sub goes to a play party and says that they have years of experience with caning and are a little pain slut. The first crack she turns around and screams' OW it never hurt like that online'."

The only way to see the oncoming train is to know that she's inexperienced and frankly a liar.

Damage control...hummm well if those that were actually there were ok with it, she was ok with it, he was ok with it till the next day then that's hard to say. Rumors run rampant, the truth takes much longer to get around. 

< Message edited by theRose4U -- 5/21/2006 10:10:35 PM >

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 10:06:32 PM   
artglfr


Posts: 235
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline 		I never read the submissive was of any gender other than submissive. Why do people assume the submissive is a "SHE"?

Sounds like the Dom followed practical and safe play, had a DM and checked in with the sub and if the Dom was being attentive which it seems the Dom was I do not see much more that could/ should have been done.

Damage control is going to be much tougher and I cannot help there. No idea and hope i never need to have one on this subject and that no one else does either.

_____________________________

Kink Forever
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Docents_of_Museum/

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 10:07:27 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I only play with My own sub.  That is it, no exceptions.  That solves the problem right there.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to theRose4U)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 10:12:58 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I only play with My own sub.  That is it, no exceptions.  That solves the problem right there.

I would agree with this. I can see situations where it's not always practical and in those occasions extra care should be taken.

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/21/2006 11:43:31 PM   
LdyS


Posts: 39
Joined: 4/21/2006
Status: offline 		Too bad that scenarios like this happen often in the BDSM "Communities".  It seems to me as if the Dom acted in good faith. I don't know any circumstance where a DM would have been part of the pre-scene discussions; and it seems doubtful a third person's input Pre-Scene, would have changed the sub's 'rethinking' of the event later. It does not surprise me that some people do not honestly disclose their level of experience. "This feels SOOO much different than IRC" seems to be a common chant.  No matter how direct the Dom's questions Pre-scene, dishonest or partially honest answers won't contribute to a mutually satisfying outcome. Seldom is a submissive's failure to stop or alter a scene when they are 'not tracking' a good decision.  The first time playing together, 'reading' a partner is a much 'chancier' way of knowing how they 'really are'. There are a lot of folks who insist on a Next Day Check In simply because so much of what we do can bring out intense feelings emotions and thoughts.  Perhaps if the submissive had the next day, spoken at length with the Dom, the drama and misperceptions and much of the emotion might have been avoided.
Trashed reputations are always a risk of ‘community’. The only thing I can think of is that the behaviors of the folks involved should support the reputation they seek. The person who has only ‘been seen’ at events can be damaging to the Dom. One can only hope that people who know the Dom who have seen the Dom play who have been part of the ‘community’ know the Dom well enough not to be willing to believe ill so easily.
Scenarios such as this one are often very divisive in a ‘community’.  Some people seem all too eager to believe ill of others. I prefer not to make judgments (the believe only half of what you see and none of what you hear formula my grandmother offered with the grain of salt to take things with still serves me well.)
I do play with others from time to time. Misunderstanding and miscommunication are risks inherent in playing with those I don’t know well.  Part of my Dominance involves planning and risk mitigation.  AfterCare would seem to me a more important focus than it needs to be when the partners know each other well.  I am a sadist, and I know what type of pain in others pleases me most… emotional sorting out, anger and hurt feelings do not please me at all. At the end of a scene, I want the submissive to want more another time. It is always in my own best interest that the submissive want more another time. How much I check in afterwards depends a lot on the circumstances – what the submissive has said they need for after care or what I suspect they might need—and what might be polite following a fun eventful evening. The newer to WIITWD (what it is that we do) the more time they seem to need. A Check In a day or two later is almost always a good thing. LdyS






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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 6:30:22 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Ok, now the question....how do you stop yourself from getting caught in a scenario like this? If we can only go by the information provided to us...how would we be able to foresee the impending train wreck? Lastly, what do you do about damage control after everything has blown up?

Wait a week.  The next soap opera drama will come along and sweep this away.

Otherwise, don't DO anything.  Go on with life as normal.  If the claims are BS, then anything to the contrary will look like fire management.  There's no fire to manage.  The people who know, know, and the people who don't, don't matter.

If saying something like the TRUTH actually worked, I'd recommend it.  But all it will do is add to the rumor fire. 

So, the dom and sub involved should talk directly, make their mutual apologies, and then move on living life as they always have before. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Miscommunication and skewed expectations - 5/22/2006 7:22:31 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		Sounds similar to Master's ex-submissive. They had been dating for a little while when she told him that she wanted to be "pushed". Which he granted. She had a safeword and never used it, and there were witnesses. The next day went whining to her ex-Dominant and one of the biggest talkers in the community. They eventually worked it out,but in the end says he should have seen it as a sign as to what that relationship would be.

She's the most bitter, vindictive person I have ever met, and the truth is not her friend. Whenever she's in a break up, her entire focus is revenge and getting back the ex (both goals at the same time). She has tried to disrupt our relationship, tried to have Master arrested, tried to have Master fired.

The moral of the story is: If the person is off kilter at the beginning, it will only get worse.

The best he can do is say one thing and stick to it. When asked about the situation say, "We had witnesses, the scene was as she negotiated, she was checked several times and that she never safeworded". Eventually, people will realize that she's the one not being honest. It's frustrating that it will take a little while, but it will eventually work. And whatever he does, do not play with her again.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 5/22/2006 7:23:28 AM >

_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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