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Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:02:47 PM   
CelticDawn


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I tried this on another webiste and everyone ignored it. I will try it again here and see if anyone will talk intelligently on this subject. The question is what long term physical or mental negative side effects of extreme pain/torture/bleeding etc have people suffered during prolonged and frequent play. As in over years or months, I have noticed that while many people talk about this no one will talk about long term potential problems may occur.

The reason I bring this up is that Lady Rea was a cutter since about the age of 10. It was not until we met that she was able to seriously bring it under control. We pretty much treat her conditions as the same category as a recovering alcoholic. I.E. You have to change your life circumstances, your never really cured, and take it one day at a time.

The results of years of cutting on her arms has been loss of body hair on those parts, permanent scars, loss of sensation on her arms, and her extremeties get cold VERY easilt during the winter. Because of this even though I do enjoy edge play with her I refuse, though she has offered, for her physical and mental safety. I do not ever want her to cut again to control a problem in her mind.

I ask about this not to damn the DS community but to shedd light on what I feel is a little discussed aspect of this life and perhaps to help inform people of different things to protect themselves and/or ones they own.
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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:09:05 PM   
juliaoceania


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Cutting is not really related to BDSM is it? It is not masochism. Some cutters are masochists, but not all masochists are cutters (Im not a cutter)

I will be paying close attention to this thread, but I am not sure your example of a cutter really fits in withBDSM play and long term health problems... Maybe I am wrong about that though

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:12:20 PM   
mistoferin


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It really woud be dependent upon the "types" of play. Surely, when the skin is broken or burned there will be scarring. In cutting and needle play, as you say there can certainly be permanent nerve damage. In extreme impact play there could be broken bones or tissue damage that results in "knotting". Etc....Etc....

Mentally, I don't see a negative down side unless the person has issues to begin with or there is an abusive component.

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:18:43 PM   
Sunshine119


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I have also seen your point reflected in many posts I have read here.  I run a social service agency and we consider cutters a danger to themselves.  As you have pointed out many of the chronic problems associated with cutting, I won't reiterate them.  However, I cringe when I read about people who are into "cutting" in the BDSM world.  There are many who have inticate designs cut into them and are cut on a regular basis because they are so into it.

How many were cutters growing up?  Is this a more socially acceptable form of self-mutalization?  I think not. While a special occasion which is marked by a scarification cutting might be purposeful and spiritual or bonding, chronic cutting is still chronic cutting.  There are other kinds of "edge" play that are too close to harming oneself.  Safe, sane and consensual therefore cannot apply in these cases.


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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:23:25 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Cutting is not really related to BDSM is it? It is not masochism. Some cutters are masochists, but not all masochists are cutters (Im not a cutter)


You are correct...cutting in the context it has been related here is indeed not related to BDSM. People who enjoy knife play and being cut are not the same as "cutters". Some people though, have that misconception...in part due to the character of "Lee" in the movie the Secretary. One of the reasons I am not particularly fond of the movie............

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:28:32 PM   
FelinePersuasion


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Cutting to self harm is not at all related to bdsm. People into knife play and sacrification usualy do it from a healthy mental aspect, while people who hack at themself with intention of harming oneself are not coming at it from a healthy state of mind.

I cut myself for a long time and It was always for negative reasons. One of the long term effects are in one of the scars a bright white scar.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 2:29:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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I thought that the only thing that made that aspect of the movie "acceptable" was that the dom in the movie told her not to do it anymore, so it was not a part of his "idea" of a submissive. I still think you are right, that aspect of her character made submissives look like we were all kinda loony and mentallly flawed.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 3:42:20 PM   
pissdoll


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without giving up too much information about myself i am deaf in one ear (with hearing loss in the one that still works) and have had my jaw repaired from multiple fractures due to long term "extreme play" or torture.

you're correct in saying that most people in bdsm don't want to discuss it.  they want to call it something else or sweep it under the rug or say that any form of "harm" is seperate from what bdsm is.

it's really too bad.  the young people who NEED to see these threads will never see them.  the girl who logs onto this site wondering if her Master has gone too far, the girl who is desperately clinging to the fact that no limit slave means no limit, even though in the back of her head she KNOWS she is being harmed and wonders how far it will go, the girl who is never going to come out and ASK any of us could really benefit from this thread playing out.

in my case, life goes on.  i was not disfigured from my damage, although it has taken a couple of years, several surgeries and thousands of dollars to be able to open my mouth (almost) completely again.  i haven't looked into a hearing aid as of yet. 

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 3:43:47 PM   
Kindred2Evil


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I think when it comes to any type of hard core play so to speak there can be long term physical problems.  Those into heavy duty bondage can end up with nerve damage, damage to the tissues and muscles, the above stated cutting can lead to problems, suspension can cause health risks.  The thing is learning about this stuff before getting that deeply involved in it.  If at all possible discussing it with those who are experienced with it and have done it for more than a couple of years.
As for knife players and cutting, I am so into that that just saying it revs my engine.  But if I felt someone had a mental problem with it, the blades would be put away period.  I have never cut myself on purpose and to be frank, doing it on accident makes my sick to my stomach.    From what I understand cutters use physical pain to overcome mental pain...to play devil's advocate, don't alot of people in some way or another?
How many times have you heard about someone who was abused working out their problems in a scene?  How healthy is that?
My therapist that I used to see told me that the biggest problem she has with BDSM is people using it for therapy.  If that's what happens, then I think the long term mental problems become a volcano just ready to blow.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 4:19:42 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pissdoll

without giving up too much information about myself i am deaf in one ear (with hearing loss in the one that still works) and have had my jaw repaired from multiple fractures due to long term "extreme play" or torture.

you're correct in saying that most people in bdsm don't want to discuss it.  they want to call it something else or sweep it under the rug or say that any form of "harm" is seperate from what bdsm is.

it's really too bad.  the young people who NEED to see these threads will never see them.  the girl who logs onto this site wondering if her Master has gone too far, the girl who is desperately clinging to the fact that no limit slave means no limit, even though in the back of her head she KNOWS she is being harmed and wonders how far it will go, the girl who is never going to come out and ASK any of us could really benefit from this thread playing out.

in my case, life goes on.  i was not disfigured from my damage, although it has taken a couple of years, several surgeries and thousands of dollars to be able to open my mouth (almost) completely again.  i haven't looked into a hearing aid as of yet. 


First of all I would like to say that I am so sorry that you have had the experiences you have. Your post is a perfect example of the EXACT reason why I sometimes come down so hard on and refuse to coddle the "newbies". Yours is the reality of what can happen to someone who has this warm fuzzy fantasy idea of what this lifetyle is....right up until they meet a sadistic someone who doesn't share their warm fantasy view.

First we have to make a distinction between extreme play and outright abuse. I don't have enough information to unequivocally state what category your experience falls into...but if I would have to take a guess I would think it would be the latter. Extreme play is something that some of us do like to indulge in, but it is not an area one should EVER venture into without FULL understanding of the risks involved. Abusive harm on the other hand, is not a consensual act and it is NEVER ok.

The best advice that I can ever give to someone who is new is that first and foremost they need to understand that this lifestyle can range from that fluffy romantic model to one more extreme than the worst of their nightmares. You have to go into this with your eyes FULLY open, take the responsibility for yourelf and educate yourself and understand the risks involved in what you are engaging in......and more important than all else.....LISTEN to that voice inside your head. Don't ever consent to something that you don't fully understand. Blind trust is not reality....it's stupidity. No limits is a term that is best left on a dragway. Entering in submission and slavery does not require you to, nor is it advisable for you to leave your brain at the entrance. 

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 5/21/2006 4:32:03 PM >


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 4:37:48 PM   
ravn


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alright, if this one might interject.

this girl was owned for a number of years as a 'no-limits' slave. And, as stated above, most 'no-limits' slaves try to cling to that...their only limit is that none call them close-minded. this one was subjected to quite a bit that was lifestyle, and some that surpassed the line into abuse, that being said, not all of this girl's experiences are fit to a BDSM thread, however, THIS thread, may do well to hear a bit.
this girl's first master liked needle play-to an extreme. The alcohol swabs, the iodine, the sterilizer, the whole she-bang. One time, for a period of about 48 hours, this girl was suspended from a beam with needles through her breasts. Whilst this girl enjoys pain, the adrenaline is gone shortly after and hanging for so long with needles and having to keep her head up to keep them from stabbing her face and chin was hard.
There was a great deal of after-care, but this girl truly believes it wasn't enough due to the fact that the offense was simple back-talk.
This girl now has a 7 month old daughter and was unable to breast feed due to the prolonged needle play. There was scarification inside the breast and the milk ducts were blocked quite effectively.
There ARE problems that arise from prolonged/improperly performed play. However, when submitting to a Dominant, the sub/slave must always keep in mind that this person holds that slaves life in their very hands. This is a lesson in caution and not jumping at the first One that comes along. It may ruin your whole life.

be well
ravn

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 4:50:53 PM   
Estring


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Your post should be required reading for any new slave. Long term extreme play even if done properly is going to have an effect on your body. You must know beforehand what limits your potential Master has, and whether your hard limits and his are a match.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 5:05:09 PM   
bandit25


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Pissdoll's post is what drives me crazy with "no limit" slaves.  Yes, it's all well and good to allow Master to set your limits...as long as he truly has your best interests at heart.  But, what if he misjudges?  What if there is something in your past that he doesn't know about?  What if? What if? What if? 

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 5:09:06 PM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravn
this girl was owned for a number of years as a 'no-limits' slave. And, as stated above, most 'no-limits' slaves try to cling to that...their only limit is that none call them close-minded. this one was subjected to quite a bit that was lifestyle, and some that surpassed the line into abuse,

this girl's first master liked needle play-to an extreme. The alcohol swabs, the iodine, the sterilizer, the whole she-bang. One time, for a period of about 48 hours, this girl was suspended from a beam with needles through her breasts. Whilst this girl enjoys pain, the adrenaline is gone shortly after and hanging for so long with needles and having to keep her head up to keep them from stabbing her face and chin was hard.
There was a great deal of after-care, but this girl truly believes it wasn't enough due to the fact that the offense was simple back-talk.
This girl now has a 7 month old daughter and was unable to breast feed due to the prolonged needle play. There was scarification inside the breast and the milk ducts were blocked quite effectively.


I am sorry that you will have be the one to pay for the rest of your life. No one deserves to have such an important and vital function stolen from them. AT the tender age of 19, you have been robbed of one of the greatest and most important pleasures of motherhood....and more importantly your child and all of your future children will be denied this wonderful start in life. My heart goes out to you.

There is something else that bothers me about your post though. Your tag lines seem to imply that you still consider yourself to be "no limits". I would think that after such an experience one would reconsider that aspect. I know that this is going to sound harsh but I truly don't mean it to be and I hope that you can see the intent of my asking. Having lost the function of your breasts, is there some other part of you that you think so little of that you are willing to sacrifice it to the whim of another next?

We are all human beings and with that condition comes limit. It does not make us any less for stating so.





_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 5:18:18 PM   
JoeBlack


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Thanks for the courage and wisdom to post and reply to this subject, we can never have too many reminders of the serious responsibility doms/Dommes take on; when they choose to play with others...

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 5:19:17 PM   
iliv2servher


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kindred2Evil

I think when it comes to any type of hard core play so to speak there can be long term physical problems.  Those into heavy duty bondage can end up with nerve damage, damage to the tissues and muscles, the above stated cutting can lead to problems, suspension can cause health risks.



I recall an incident that happened to me a number of years ago while visiting a prodomme.  During the session, I was placed in a sling.  However, the suspension either broke or it wasn't fastened securely, and I fell right on my tail bone.  The interesting thing here is that the prodomme was also an RN.  One can never be too careful.

In our community, we strive to play SSC (Safe, Sane & Consentual).  This acronym has often been criticized by others, but it just makes for good common sense.  A number of us were RNs and EMTs -- and even some had CPR training.  We always had a medical kit handy, used alcohol swabs and sharps disposal containers for needles.  And we always disinfected toys that were used by multiple individuals.

Safety is of prime concern, and it gives the community a very bad name when safety protocols are not followed.

-iliv2servHer


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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 6:07:29 PM   
slavejali


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I couldnt walk for 2 or 3 days after one particular bondage session, it was an incredibly scarey experience. Since that time my back is more susceptible to strain. I think anyone involved in bondage should do daily stretching  as part of their own self-maintenance regime(something which I dont do often enough myself).

Also with any kind of impact on the body, fibrosis builds up (scar tissue- its the bodys way of healing itself), regular massage can help with that. Early, very light stroking to move the fluid away from an injured site can really be helpful too. Basically the rule of thumb there is, any area above the waistline gets stroked in the direction towards the area just under the arms ( Brachial plexus) and any area below the waistline gets stroked towards the groin area (Inguinal plexus).

Massage can also help with repair of tissue after cutting.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 6:08:49 PM   
BitaTruble


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These are simply my own experiences with long term effects of S/m play.. and some of my own opinions to boot.

Impact play - it takes more powerful strokes to cause the same pain levels that lighter strokes used to cause as my endurance to pain continues to rise. Stretch that over several years of fairly consistent play and it's easy enough to see from that one fact that the risk levels go up for permanent damage. Marks/bruises are often seen as trophy's to a masochist and once all those blood vessels have been broken/healed, broken/healed until there is nothing left to heal, bruising is much harder to come by, so again, you have to go ever harder to get the same sorts of effect. You get to a point, where it's damn near impossible to get bruised. Even simple things like a paddling can lead to 'leather butt' and/or an inability to 'feel' what, at one time, made you safeword. I don't bruise anymore. I may get red, but by the next day, there won't be any visual evidence that I've played although I may carry some residual soreness for a day or two.

knife play - the deeper you go, the more chance you have of scarring. I don't carry any permanent scars from knife play... yet. When you continually cut the same areas over several years, the tissue you have cut can stop healing all together and you loss all sense of sensation in that area. The best way to avoid this issue is to simply change up your repertoire so that you move around the body and are not cutting the same places each time. If you have a big enough arsenal and change up the sort of play you do, you might only get to knife play every few months and even over several years, you have greatly minimized your risk than if you engage in knife play every week for years on end.

whips - much like knives, if you continually whip the same areas over and over, you can scar, build up such a tolerance that you no longer feel the sensations. That said, a single errant whip stroke can cause a scar the FIRST time it's done, so that's something to keep in mind as well. Pain receptors are clues to something being wrong and we often, as masochists, get to the point where we have deliberately turned those receptors off through building endurance ... so no more warning signs that we are, in fact, really getting damaged by the actions we allow. You can minimize long term damage in the same way as knife play. Simply make it 'one' of the available scenes.. and not the primary one that you do every single time. That has the dual benefit of making it special as well. There is risk, with whipping there is a fairly high risk of something going wrong.. and as you move from buggy whips/signal tails to dressage to bullwhips, the risk goes up because the weapons get more unwieldy.

Bondage - Most of our scenes involve some sort of bondage.. that's the staple. You can cut off circulation and it doesn't take 'years' of play to get to that point. You can do permanent harm the first time you are ever in bondage. If it's too tight, if you are in it too long, if you are pressing against another nerve because of the way the bondage was done even if the rope is not actually on that nerve that gets damaged, but perhaps the arm or leg is just at a funny angle ... all sorts of things can happen. Bottom line, a lot of what we do is NEVER going to be safe.. but if you take care, you can minimize the risks.
Needle play - I do a LOT of needle play.. and again, the key is to rotate the types of play you do so that you're doing different things to different parts of the body and not the same thing over and over again. I read the post about the woman who wore the needles during suspension for two days and I would highly suggest you see a doctor regarding the blockage. The chances are, it wasn't the needles that did it. There are 15-20 clusters through which the milk flows and the glands which produce the milk themselves are so deep within the tissue that the odds are damn near impossible they were pierced by any needle unless you were actually hooked with double aughts (00 ga) or something which are not needles at all.. If your glands are blocked for some other reason, you may need medical care but you need to find out for sure as you can develop mastasis. Some signs to look for.. were you actually producing milk as in your breasts got engorged but the child did not get milk when it tried to feed? Did you let your ob/gyn know about the 48 hours of wearing needles so he was aware and could rule out other causes of the failure to breast feed? The odds of even several needles being used over a long term and that they just happened to have been placed so that every single duct was blocked in both breasts and that they all produced a scar tissue sufficient to prevent breast feeding at all are astronomical in my opinion. Hypoplastic should be ruled out at the very least.

Making breast milk: How your body produces Nature's perfect baby food

I've enclosed a link so you can see what things actually look like from a milk duct/gland perspective. From this, it's easy to see how hard it would be to hit and scar every single one of the ducts which lead to the nipple. I have very large nipples and there is no way I could fit 20 needles through them which is what it would take to scar and permanently damage both breasts. Seriously, if you can't feed the child from either breast, I would consider an alternative reason before I blamed it on a 48 hour period of wearing needles. It 'could' in theory be true, but I'd want to check with my doctor for sure before I accepted it as fact if for no other reason than to be aware of things like mastitis. Your own health is your responsibility and I think the post is a bit on the alarmist side and something that would be 'unusual' and not common as a sign to watch for in needle play.

Fire play - well, this one is a given that shit can happen and happen fast and I have a permanent scar from a scene that went wrong. I still engage in it because what went wrong was a 'freak' accident and I am aware of the risk and choose to take it anyway.

Well, the list would be endless as there are so many different sorts of play and I did not and am not going to even touch on mental damage. Such should be taken up with a qualified therapist, not on a message forum.

Just, you know, be careful, be aware and recognize the possibilities. Either that, or go 'nilla and don't play if you're afraid of what may happen. Me, I'm willing to take the risks because they are worth the rewards.

Celeste

edited for typo and paragraph correction



< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 5/21/2006 6:11:45 PM >


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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/21/2006 9:15:11 PM   
proudsub


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Although we don't do anything very extreme, i think there is a lot of good information here and want to thank everyone who posted.

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RE: Long Term Affects of Extreme Play - 5/22/2006 1:04:23 AM   
becca333


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This should be required reading, for subs AND Dom/mes.

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