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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 8:49:21 PM   
Sanity


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Think of how the left reacted to Bush liberating the people of Iraq

Now imagine the depths of insanity the left would have plumbed had Bush opted to threaten, harass or even overthrow Khadaffi

What other choices did Bush have

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Obama certainly could have anticipated this. Those are not the only nasty ass weapons to be had over there too .


Gee, do you think Bush could have anticipated too when when he basically gave Libya a pardon when they made a cash settlement over Pan Am 103?



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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 9:22:59 PM   
Sanity


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Sure it is. When the people of Iraq were suffering under siege of the various forces that were so hostile to them there, security and liberation were absolutely one and the same.

Its a sad comment on your state of denial though, that you must resort to these semantics games in order to obfuscate a plain spoken discussion of the facts

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Interesting that any leftist, in any state of denial, would try to deny that we sent troops in to secure Iraq...




Secure ? you have spent the last nine years or so telling us it was to liberate. Hardly the same thing.


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 9:39:17 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Sure it is. When the people of Iraq were suffering under siege of the various forces that were so hostile to them there, security and liberation were absolutely one and the same.

Its a sad comment on your state of denial though, that you must resort to these semantics games in order to obfuscate a plain spoken discussion of the facts

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Interesting that any leftist, in any state of denial, would try to deny that we sent troops in to secure Iraq...




Secure ? you have spent the last nine years or so telling us it was to liberate. Hardly the same thing.


Oh dear! This is becoming more and more tragic.

Any one who believes that currently, Iraq is either "secure" or "liberated" is suffering serious delusions. There are major incidents there daily (eg car/suicide bombs with major loss of life - upwards of 70 dead in a single recent incident). The Govt has become a branch office of the Iranian Foreign Office and the entire population (Kurds excepted) is united only in demanding that all foreign forces leave asap.

I refrain from using the term clinical in this instance. It's a tad optimistic to expect someone fed on a diet of Fox 'infotainment' to have any clear notion of what's happening in Iraq.

Just as it's terminally unrealistic to expect a mouthpiece for the looney Right to have an understanding of events that corresponds in any way to reality.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 9:40:41 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
We made every effort in Iraq, despite your partisan blindness to the facts. And even if what you post is accurate, why didnt Obama learn from Iraq
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
As to what is different - again, and I have explained this to you many times, we put boots on the ground Iin Iraq in order to secure Iraqs future as well as its weapons stockpiles, to the best of our ability

Bullshit. It is well documented that there was no plan to secure even the known weapon and ammo dumps in Iraq. That's how the insurgents were able to use artillery shells to make the early IED's.



You are absolutely the last person oh this here forum to bash someone else about being 'partisan blindness to the facts'.

That said, you failed to counter DK's arguement to any effect. More so, you inserted "Its Obama's Fault" as a way to cover your hopelessly pathetic attempt at a counter-arguement.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 9:44:28 PM   
Sanity


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Youre actually bolstering my argument that security in Iraqs case goes hand in hand with  being freed (or liberated).

Before, Saddam was butchering his own. Tell us, who is doing all the killing now, tweaker belle...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Oh dear! This is becoming more and more tragic.

Any one who believes that currently, Iraq is either "secure" or "liberated" is suffering serious delusions. There are major incidents there daily (eg car/suicide bombs with major loss of life - upwards of 70 dead in a single recent incident). The Govt has become a branch office of the Iranian Foreign Office and the entire population (Kurds excepted) is united only in demanding that all foreign forces leave asap.

I refrain from using the term clinical in this instance. It's a tad optimistic to expect someone fed on a diet of Fox 'infotainment' to have any clear notion of what's happening in Iraq.

Just as it's terminally unrealistic to expect a mouthpiece for the looney Right to have an understanding of events that corresponds in any way to reality.


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 11:02:55 PM   
Sanity


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Yes, ken has a huge blind spot attributable to his strong ideological bias, which has nothing to do with my own if I do have one, making your first point moot.

Your second point makes even less sense. I was not "blaming" Obama, I was asking why he would ignore the lessons of Iraq while submitting to NATO the use of our drone technology. Arent you curious yourself as to why the Pentagon planners thought it was a good idea to allow these twenty thousand highly sophisticated SAMs to go unsecured?

And who are these "rebels" we have enabled to take the reigns of power in Libya. Is this another Iran or Afghanistan in the making?

How do we know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

You are absolutely the last person oh this here forum to bash someone else about being 'partisan blindness to the facts'.

That said, you failed to counter DK's arguement to any effect. More so, you inserted "Its Obama's Fault" as a way to cover your hopelessly pathetic attempt at a counter-arguement.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 9/10/2011 11:03:41 PM >

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/10/2011 11:58:50 PM   
outhere69


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Status: offline 		On defensetech.org they commented that the SA-7s were very old (some back to 1977), take a fair bit of training to use, and may be dead, depending on how they were stored.  A lot of the pics are of guys carrying only parts of the weapons.  Here's to hoping the batteries are dead.

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 3:05:14 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


From the

Ready

Fire

Aim

Dept

quote:

Looters Steal Gadhafi's weapons, including surface-to-air missiles...

According to Peter Bouckaert, emergencies director at Human Rights Watch, the weapons the looters want most, and take first, are the SAMs.

HRW estimates there are 20,000 surface-to-air missiles in Libya, and many of those are now missing. Some are recent Russian-made SAMs, capable of shooting down aircraft flying as high as 11,000 feet.

"They have no military use in this war," said Bouckaert. "Gadhafi is not flying any airplanes, he's not flying any helicopters. So why are people looting these very powerful and dangerous missiles?"

Bouckaert suggested that some of the looters might have other targets in mind. "They can be used to shoot down a civilian plane. That's what al Qaeda tried to do in Mombasa a few years ago."


http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=2281782&spid=








Is this like when Bush I sold all those canisters of anthrax to Saddam Husein when VP as the media turned a blind eye at the time, only to later surface from their mole-hill and say BOO! to fast asleep twits like sanmity when the time arose?


Just curious.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/11/2011 3:26:56 AM >

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 4:59:44 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Dude, do NOT use the same acronym as Smart Ass Masochists and expect my brain to think in terms of missiles.



Good, then I am not the only one who was expecting a totally different thread here.


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 5:02:41 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

You are absolutely the last person oh this here forum to bash someone else about being 'partisan blindness to the facts'.


Actually it's a toss up between the two of you. Funny that you of all people would be pointing this out. But it was good for a laugh, so thanks for that.


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 5:12:36 AM   
Aneirin


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Back to the actual topic; As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For

Oh yeah, well that doesn't surprise me, but it is prudent to remember friends can quickly turn into enemies, where
Libya goes in the forthcoming years is anyone's guess, lets just hope those missing weapons will not be fired at those
who allowed the weapons to go missing, as 20, 000 Surface to air missiles is not a small number, and these things ain't small,
so it was big operation that went unnoticed, ignored etc.

As to thoughts that they will be sold, can anyone tell me any country that has felt sufficiently safe to rid it's weapons,
the US hasn't so why should anyone else ?

But Western involvement in any country's internal warfare, sense says security of the weapons is a high priority, either sieze them or destroy them, not let them go walkabout, for sure that is an incompetant oversight.

Unless of course the public knowledge of such weapons in other's hands could be useful in the future, justification for attack,
Just like Iraq.......

Is the west planting seeds for a future harvest in Libya ?
As to think, why not, they got oil ?

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 9/11/2011 5:16:15 AM >

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 5:26:31 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


We made every effort in Iraq, despite your partisan blindness to the facts. And even if what you post is accurate, why didnt Obama learn from Iraq

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
As to what is different - again, and I have explained this to you many times, we put boots on the ground Iin Iraq in order to secure Iraqs future as well as its weapons stockpiles, to the best of our ability

Bullshit. It is well documented that there was no plan to secure even the known weapon and ammo dumps in Iraq. That's how the insurgents were able to use artillery shells to make the early IED's.


Bullshit we made no effort in Iraq.
http://www.wate.com/story/2500510/oak-ridge-resident-says-he-warned-military-about-unsecured-iraqi-weapons?clienttype=printable
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2004-10-30/news/0410300039_1_baghdad-explosives-ordnance
http://en.aswataliraq.info/Default1.aspx?page=article_page&id=142212&l=1
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1101-22.htm

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 8:51:05 AM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It would be lovely if everyone just ignored Sanity. Maybe he will go away?

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:06:51 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		I'm game....

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:28:42 AM   
Sanity


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Amen to that

quote:

ORIGINAL: outhere69

On defensetech.org they commented that the SA-7s were very old (some back to 1977), take a fair bit of training to use, and may be dead, depending on how they were stored.  A lot of the pics are of guys carrying only parts of the weapons.  Here's to hoping the batteries are dead.


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:32:40 AM   
Sanity


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No, because the anthrax is a lie you just made up (or read on a far left blog somewhere), and these missiles are real.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Is this like when Bush I sold all those canisters of anthrax to Saddam Husein when VP as the media turned a blind eye at the time, only to later surface from their mole-hill and say BOO! to fast asleep twits like sanmity when the time arose?


Just curious.






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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:34:50 AM   
Sanity


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If you mindless little trolls who never contribute to the discussion want to ignore me... I suppose that could learn to live with that, some how. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

It would be lovely if everyone just ignored Sanity. Maybe he will go away?


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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:41:41 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


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Status: offline 		Domi,I total agree that the guys that put their life on the line to save other gis..One of our medics was nominated for the MOH..I still don't know if he received it yet..just another fuckup by france,Germny and us..We should have had enought boots in country to secure all that nasty shit..I have used stingers and know just how effective they can be...40k stingers equal 40k terr attacts...B

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 9:54:49 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


No, because the anthrax is a lie you just made up (or read on a far left blog somewhere), and these missiles are real.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Is this like when Bush I sold all those canisters of anthrax to Saddam Husein when VP as the media turned a blind eye at the time, only to later surface from their mole-hill and say BOO! to fast asleep twits like sanmity when the time arose?


Just curious.






Nope we sold 8 strains of anthrax to Iraq in 1985 which was whie Bush I was vp.
http://www.gulfweb.org/bigdoc/report/riegle1.html

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RE: As Many As 20,000 SAMS In Libya Unacounted For - 9/11/2011 10:10:07 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
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Your links are useless to prove your assertion, ken. "Some guy from Podunk"?

And I didnt write that there were no problems securing the weapons caches, I wrote that we made an effort to secure them to the best of our ability

None of your links disputes this fact.

Heres a New York Times article from 2003 about our efforts:

quote:



...A Pentagon spokesman, Bryan G. Whitman, said tonight, ''All known Iraqi munitions sites are being secured by coalition forces.'' But Mr. Whitman said he could not address questions of security at each munition site, saying that would be a matter for the local ground commander.


Senior civilian American officials in Iraq, who have privately raised concerns about security at some munitions sites, say even a small number of poorly guarded sites would pose a risk to American forces and the reconstruction effort. ''It's a problem,'' said a senior American official who has been actively involved in Iraqi security matters.

Another problem for the American-led forces is the looting that followed the fall of the government of Saddam Hussein. A senior defense official said today that the rapid collapse of the Iraqi Army during the war had left extensive ammunition dumps unguarded for many days, and that in many cases virtually everything had been looted by fleeing conscripts and officers.

The defense official said United States forces had worked hard to secure the dumps since then. But their presence, and delays in destroying some of the ammunition caches, were cited as a source of concern today by Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the commander of the Army's Fourth Infantry Division, in a briefing for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who is visiting Iraq.


Full article here



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


We made every effort in Iraq, despite your partisan blindness to the facts. And even if what you post is accurate, why didnt Obama learn from Iraq

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
As to what is different - again, and I have explained this to you many times, we put boots on the ground Iin Iraq in order to secure Iraqs future as well as its weapons stockpiles, to the best of our ability

Bullshit. It is well documented that there was no plan to secure even the known weapon and ammo dumps in Iraq. That's how the insurgents were able to use artillery shells to make the early IED's.


Bullshit we made no effort in Iraq.
http://www.wate.com/story/2500510/oak-ridge-resident-says-he-warned-military-about-unsecured-iraqi-weapons?clienttype=printable
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2004-10-30/news/0410300039_1_baghdad-explosives-ordnance
http://en.aswataliraq.info/Default1.aspx?page=article_page&id=142212&l=1
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1101-22.htm



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