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China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 7:47:42 AM

samboct

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While there has been a certain amount of smugness from Republicans about the failures of US solar companies, the situation in wind power is perhaps even worse.

China has come to dominate the wind power industry in less than 5 years- with 4 companies in the top 10 of wind turbine manufacturers accounting for 1/3rd of the market of these firms, and with installations in 2010 that surpassed both the US and Europe- COMBINED! Chinese installations cracked 15 GW, while the US installations dropped a calamitous 50%, from 10 GW in 2009 to 5GW in 2010. Europe also fell slightly, to 9.9 GW, even with more offshore installations. See this article here: http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/02/02/global-wind-capacity-increases-by-22-in-2010-asia-leads-growth/

Can we please stop hitting the snooze button? The US wind industry has something like 83,000 employees, but there's no reason it shouldn't have 10x that given the increases in the global market, since other countries are beginning to install wind turbines, including India, Brazil, and Egypt.

From my perspective, this is really aggravating, because the US was the global leader by the early 80s thanks to some great R+D by NASA and NREL in the 70s. Another wonderful legacy of Ronnie Rayguns.....

Sam

Post #: 1

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 7:54:10 AM

Sanity

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Odd how China has a far better business climate than the USA does

DARN those darned Republicans for causing that

Darn them all to heck

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 8:18:56 AM

MileHighM

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The truth is wind isn't cost competitive to current grid produced power. It cannot succeed without subsities in the US. The main reason for this isn't the lack of technology (While china leads in volume, the US is still the leader in technology and quality). Wind in a good area is an economical power source. But the key is in a good area.

The vast majority of American don't live where it is windy (mainly cause wind makes life sucky). Also they are spread out over a large area. Wind towers have to be built far away from population centers and it is the cost of building and maintaining the transmission system for them that is killing them.

While areas of South/North Dakota, Kansas, and other plains states have pretty decent wind, who the hell lives there? While there is some good wind in parts of CO, it is still many miles from population centers like Denver. High power transmission lines cost 1.5Mil per mile to build, and that doesn't include sighting permitting and eminent domain issues. The best place for wind is usually on the coast. Well look to what has happened around Cape Cod and you will see that is a non starter. Even the Liberal Boston Brahmans, where saying, 'not in my back yard.'

I know you have discussed in other threads the notion of room temperature SCs to aleviate the the transmission issues. Until that is invented, there isn't much of a point besides the feel good ones to go gung-ho on major wind installations. However, I believe in terms of physics, you will see cold fusion before RT SCs. In which case, all current forms energy production just became obsolete.

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 8:31:08 AM

samboct

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MHM

Actually, another way to think about it- and I'll post Friedman's editorial, is that given the subsidies of the fossil fuel industry in the US, wind power isn't competitive, but if other countries don't have those subsidies- it can be. Here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/14/opinion/friedman-is-it-weird-enough-yet.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

In terms of transmission- there's other technology besides RT superconductors. Today we already have superconductors- they just have to get chilled to around 80K. This technology is already in use. Although the chilling sounds dangerous/expensive and inefficient, it only takes a few per cent of the power transmitted- much better than the existing losses. Furthermore, since the technology uses buried pipes, the permitting issue may be relaxed, although yes, it does cost more to bury a line rather than to string it overhead (ranging from 10x to 100x).

Another alternative is just taking a pipe- a fat pipe of 6 feet in diameter, and stuffing it full of aluminum- check out electric pipes here: http://www.stoppathwv.com/documents/elpipes.pdf Both of these technologies exist today. Fusion is decades off at best, and probably doesn't make other forms of power generation obsolete. But I do agree with you that wind power also needs better transmission technology...

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/14/2011 8:41:09 AM >

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 8:54:04 AM

MileHighM

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I imagine electric pipes would be more expensive than our current forms of transmission, not to mention using a ton of aluminum will only raise its commody price. (please provide a link you get lots of Google static just searching electric pipes). I know we have SCs but 80k is -300F that is really fucking cold. We have has SCs for over 50years, and we are still in the temperature basement. For that technology to be viable we need them to work to about 160F (Practical conditions in high summer heat when shallowly burried).

Cold Fusion is now working in the labs and with repeatable experiments. Yes it may be a long ways off from commercialization, but a low energy nuclear reaction that is safe, would make it all obsolete. You solve the need for transmission because you can have small safe reactors all over the place, including in your car. You won't want AE because this would be cheaper and more reliable.

I am well aware of Friedman. I have read a lot of his stuff including one of his book 'Hot, Flat, and Crowded.' The subsity issue still doen't address the transmission issue for wind relative to its availibility and the population centers of the country. The other problem with wind and quite frankly most AE sources, is that they are intermittent therefore unreliable. None of the numbers used to calculate AE cost really ever include the need to over build the system as well as install vast quantities of power storage in the system to accommodate its intermittent nature. Our solar units, need a 2 battery reserve minimum to ensure power reliability. When you add that cost, you fucked when compared to grid power. Its viability is limited to off grid applications.

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 9:05:00 AM

samboct

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MHM

In terms of cost of electric pipes (and I did provide a link)-yes, the installed cost is a lot higher. But people who build transmission networks don't have to account for losses- the systems is just wildly screwed up. Heck, even a company like Composite Technology Corp went bankrupt (I lost money on that stock) because of this disconnect. And they were selling a transmission line with 25% lower losses than conventional cable at a premium of 2x. How long before the lower losses pay for this investment?

In terms of superconductors- the problem has been that we could only make thin, fragile ribbons of the stuff. American Superconductor can now make cables of it, although it's not flexible enough to go on a reel IIRC. When you bury a pipe of the stuff, along with the cooling jacket (these things aren't that big- think it's a 1.5 meters in diameter with cooling) the thermal mass is such that you don't lose much heat even if the power goes out.

I have no idea of where you got your info on cold fusion, but I'll be happy to sell you a bridge in Brooklyn- cash please. We don't need some new wonder technology tomw. we need technology today to create jobs and compete in the global marketplace.

In terms of fossil fuel replacement technology- you've got it backwards. The joy of PV is that the max production tends to be pretty close to max demand. Over time, demand has also become much more variable, since white goods manufacturing plays a much smaller role in our economy, and air conditioned residences and offices play much more. With a better economic model, involving some type of variable pricing, PV works very well, even with its high cost.

Sam

< Message edited by samboct -- 9/14/2011 9:06:07 AM >

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:03:29 AM

Endivius

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Oh no, not the wind power!!! What if they use it all up?? We should invade.

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:04:08 AM

MileHighM

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Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff. Ultimately the problem is it needs burrying. The reasons they don't bury transmission lines outside of cities are numerous. The biggest being cost, the second being siting, permitting, regulation, and the distruction of private property (at least temporary). The easiest solution to transmission, is distribution. If you distribute generation, you don't need transmission as badly.

Something I think solar is quite good at, better and more reliable than wind. You still have to have power storage no matter what with a intermittent power source.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm this is the CF research I am refering to. You can look up the published papers if you like. I agree we need to be competitive now, but I don't see the current crop of green techonologies being the large scale answer we need. The excess burden and cost they require right now offset their overall economic benefit. Even Friedman in the article you provided advocated teh need for taxes or a capandtrade system to prop up the AE industry.

Pretty close, ain't close enough, still need batteries. Peak demand is in the evenings in the US, that is when solar production is waning fast

Listen, if you haven't noticed through our discussions, we disagree more in the details than in principle. As I have said, I am an engineer in the solar biz. I am neck deep in this every day. You are right we need to move out of F-Fuels. However, I think you have been fed too much kool-aid with regard to its present day viability and competitiveness. We focus on off-grid work because it is economically viable and a substancial improvement over traditional fuel sources. We are thouroughly competive without subsities or tax incentives. We can produce off-grid systems with full power storage that make power at about a cost ranging from $0.31-$0.46 per kWh (figured on 10year system life). While considerably pricier than grid, compared to diesel generators and other off-grid means, that whips the $0.98-$1.20 per kWh they cost to run.

Until you have fully backed up integrated systems like ours runing in the $0.18 per kWh normalized to todays energy prices, do I think you are truly grid competitive. Competitive to the point that you don't ass rape the consumer and commercial energy market to a point of economic crisis. The comodity prices are starting fall, and the technology only gets better year after year. I think there has been to much political grab-ass surrounding AE over the past decade, pushing it out before it is really ready. To cite one of your usual sources: http://www.solarbuzz.com/facts-and-figures/markets-growth/cost-competitiveness. While they claim the gap is closing, that is based on a zero profit model (not good for the economy). It is still based on altruistic net metering models. Those net-metering models will be scrapped when AE is a significant percentage of the generating capacity. Becasue this is when the need for energy storgae reaches critical mass. That is why I know the pricing figures constantly spouted are bunko, because they never included the storage buffers necessary to keep the grid stable with intermittent sources.

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:33:12 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

The truth is wind isn't cost competitive to current grid produced power. It cannot succeed without subsities in the US.

As you are well aware the oil industry recieves subsidies so that is not a deal breaker. We subsidise industries all the time...consider the transcontinental rail road.
We know that sooner or later we will run out of oil so if we do not plan for that time by subsidizing alternative sources of energy what will our options be?

The main reason for this isn't the lack of technology (While china leads in volume, the US is still the leader in technology and quality). Wind in a good area is an economical power source. But the key is in a good area.

The vast majority of American don't live where it is windy (mainly cause wind makes life sucky). Also they are spread out over a large area. Wind towers have to be built far away from population centers and it is the cost of building and maintaining the transmission system for them that is killing them.

While areas of South/North Dakota, Kansas, and other plains states have pretty decent wind, who the hell lives there? While there is some good wind in parts of CO, it is still many miles from population centers like Denver. High power transmission lines cost 1.5Mil per mile to build, and that doesn't include sighting permitting and eminent domain issues. The best place for wind is usually on the coast. Well look to what has happened around Cape Cod and you will see that is a non starter. Even the Liberal Boston Brahmans, where saying, 'not in my back yard.'

Being in the industry as you are I am sure you are contantly seeing new technologies come foreward.
Here is a link to one possible solution to the transmission problem.

http://www.gizmag.com/sapphire-fibers-carry-more-energy/19781/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=b9b41d7d2d-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

I know you have discussed in other threads the notion of room temperature SCs to aleviate the the transmission issues. Until that is invented, there isn't much of a point besides the feel good ones to go gung-ho on major wind installations. However, I believe in terms of physics, you will see cold fusion before RT SCs. In which case, all current forms energy production just became obsolete.

(in reply to MileHighM)

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:42:34 AM

samboct

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MHM

I concur that we do tend to agree in principle. I'm a consultant in advanced materials- and I've had to learn a bit about how stuff gets commercialized over the years. It's nearly impossible for new technology to compete with existing technology without a first customer- someone who's willing to pay for performance. And I'm aghast at the way that China is rapidly gobbling up marketshare in a move that's very reminiscent of Amazon. Recall that Amazon's business model wasn't about revenue initially, it was about market share. They decided that once they got market share, they could focus on revenue later. Well, it seems to have worked. So I'm a firm believer that we need to be manufacturing stuff now, even though it's at a cost disadvantage with the Chinese, because that's the only way we'll progress up the learning curve. If we wait, we won't have any alternatives- the Chinese will own the global market. We used to do this with military stuff- materials had to be US sourced unless there was a damn good reason. It kept a lot of domestic manufacture going. Then Ronnie came in with COTS (commercial off the shelf technology) and a lot of our critical mfg went to China. Hence, while I understand your economics argument, we're already sucking hind tit- in the long run, we can't afford to wait. You can be aggravated that we shouldn't have been in this crappy situation in the first place, but that's not going to do diddly.

In terms of burying lines, actually, right of way is often easier with buried stuff than overhead lines- out of sight, out of mind. Nevertheless, we desperately need a federal energy policy. With respect to more transmission lines versus distributed power- what I'm advocating is basically a superhighway network that allows us to ship power from one end of the country to another. We need to access the cheap wind power in the plains states on the coasts. This doesn't mean that we need to wire every community into this highway- it should have relatively few exits, since they're expensive (but doable these days.) So basically a separate grid of relatively few lines. I agree with you about distributed power though.

I also don't disagree with you on storage although that's a separate technology discussion. We've actually got a fair amount of storage (I was going to say 20GW, but it might be higher than that in the US) primarily hydro. Batteries are one option flywheels another, and capacitors another. Japan has been going to batteries...

Sam

(in reply to MileHighM)

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:46:02 AM

MileHighM

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Joined: 10/8/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As you are well aware the oil industry recieves subsidies so that is not a deal breaker. We subsidise industries all the time...consider the transcontinental rail road.
We know that sooner or later we will run out of oil so if we do not plan for that time by subsidizing alternative sources of energy what will our options be?

Being in the industry as you are I am sure you are contantly seeing new technologies come foreward.
Here is a link to one possible solution to the transmission problem.

http://www.gizmag.com/sapphire-fibers-carry-more-energy/19781/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=b9b41d7d2d-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

Two wrongs don't make a right---The subsities need to go all around. I think AE will be ready a lot sooner than the day oil becomes too limitted for use. We should focus on supporting AE in areas where it is cost competitive like off-gird---tax and regulate generators. As it establishes itself in viable markets, it will become more viable elsewhere. Give it full tax deduction status for residential grid applications (at least it is near competitive there). Utility scale installations are a waste of subsity dollars right now, and create undue technical and transmission problems with the current system.

Impressive little wire. I wonder what it will run in cost.... At least sapphires can be synthetically created, so can nanotube braid wires (nearly SC themselves). The good news about technology right now is that many things like batteries and transmission wires, is that that technology isn't completely link to AE. People are investing in it regardless. Once some barriers are cracked, we will see a lot of good things coming from it.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 11

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 10:55:27 AM

MileHighM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

MHM

I concur that we do tend to agree in principle. I'm a consultant in advanced materials- and I've had to learn a bit about how stuff gets commercialized over the years. It's nearly impossible for new technology to compete with existing technology without a first customer- someone who's willing to pay for performance. And I'm aghast at the way that China is rapidly gobbling up marketshare in a move that's very reminiscent of Amazon. Recall that Amazon's business model wasn't about revenue initially, it was about market share. They decided that once they got market share, they could focus on revenue later. Well, it seems to have worked. So I'm a firm believer that we need to be manufacturing stuff now, even though it's at a cost disadvantage with the Chinese, because that's the only way we'll progress up the learning curve. If we wait, we won't have any alternatives- the Chinese will own the global market. We used to do this with military stuff- materials had to be US sourced unless there was a damn good reason. It kept a lot of domestic manufacture going. Then Ronnie came in with COTS (commercial off the shelf technology) and a lot of our critical mfg went to China. Hence, while I understand your economics argument, we're already sucking hind tit- in the long run, we can't afford to wait. You can be aggravated that we shouldn't have been in this crappy situation in the first place, but that's not going to do diddly.
I hear you. I just don't want to cut off our nose to spite our face. The one advantage we have left is that chinese products are still crap and no one has a high opinion of them. They could lose their market share if we realy develop quality at a fair price aproach to everything we do. Look at toyotas and hondas. They now cost more than Chevy and Ford, but sell better, because people see them as a better value.

In terms of burying lines, actually, right of way is often easier with buried stuff than overhead lines- out of sight, out of mind. Nevertheless, we desperately need a federal energy policy. With respect to more transmission lines versus distributed power- what I'm advocating is basically a superhighway network that allows us to ship power from one end of the country to another. We need to access the cheap wind power in the plains states on the coasts. This doesn't mean that we need to wire every community into this highway- it should have relatively few exits, since they're expensive (but doable these days.) So basically a separate grid of relatively few lines. I agree with you about distributed power though.

I also don't disagree with you on storage although that's a separate technology discussion. We've actually got a fair amount of storage (I was going to say 20GW, but it might be higher than that in the US) primarily hydro. Batteries are one option flywheels another, and capacitors another. Japan has been going to batteries...
The US also has a lot of battery storage. It is great because of the low power loss you get from batteries. I am not sure what the storage density of flywheels are but it is my understanding you lose a fair amount of power using them for anything more than power boosting and damping. It is all long term major capital outlay.

Sam

(in reply to samboct)

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 11:09:20 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As you are well aware the oil industry recieves subsidies so that is not a deal breaker. We subsidise industries all the time...consider the transcontinental rail road.
We know that sooner or later we will run out of oil so if we do not plan for that time by subsidizing alternative sources of energy what will our options be?

Being in the industry as you are I am sure you are contantly seeing new technologies come foreward.
Here is a link to one possible solution to the transmission problem.

http://www.gizmag.com/sapphire-fibers-carry-more-energy/19781/?utm_source=Gizmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=b9b41d7d2d-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email

Two wrongs don't make a right---The subsities need to go all around.

I do believe that the oil co. need for subsidies has long since passed.
I do blieve that the need to subsidize emerging technologies is necessary.

I think AE will be ready a lot sooner than the day oil becomes too limitted for use.

At $4 a gallon it would appear that oil is already limited in it's use.

We should focus on supporting AE in areas where it is cost competitive like off-gird---tax and regulate generators.

That is current policy in california.

As it establishes itself in viable markets, it will become more viable elsewhere. Give it full tax deduction status for residential grid applications (at least it is near competitive there).

Have you seen the new solar pannels coming out of china that are designed for line tie systems. In the neighborhood of $1 per watt. It would be sweet if they would do that with stand alone systems but the money is in the line tie.
Utility scale installations are a waste of subsity dollars right now, and create undue technical and transmission problems with the current system.

Impressive little wire. I wonder what it will run in cost.... At least sapphires can be synthetically created, so can nanotube braid wires (nearly SC themselves). The good news about technology right now is that many things like batteries and transmission wires, is that that technology isn't completely link to AE. People are investing in it regardless. Once some barriers are cracked, we will see a lot of good things coming from it.

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 13

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 11:13:03 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

The one advantage we have left is that chinese products are still crap and no one has a high opinion of them.

Would you agree that everything that is imported from china to places like harbor freight was ordered to spec by an american?
We are quite aware that china has mach 3 aircraft, nuclear weapons and stuff in outer space. Obviously they are capable of making premium quality products.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/14/2011 11:55:51 AM >

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RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 11:28:10 AM

MileHighM

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I don't know about spec... HF tools really suck.

We use 1$/watt US made panels on our systems. Problem with those cheap chinese panels is their falure rate. By the time you are done replacing the shit ones, the price ends up being nearly on parity.

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Post #: 15

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 11:55:03 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I don't know about spec... HF tools really suck.

By spec I mean the buyer in the u.s. specifies exactly what they want. The chinese just make what we ask them to.
I do not waste my time with hf tools.

We use 1$/watt US made panels on our systems.

Where are you getting $1/watt american made pannels?
I have been off grid for 25 years and even used pannels cost $3/watt and up.

Problem with those cheap chinese panels is their falure rate. By the time you are done replacing the shit ones, the price ends up being nearly on parity.

So far I have had no feedback on the chinese pannels from those I know in the solar business. the only chinese pannels I have heard anything about are the line tie units and nothing on stand alone systems

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Post #: 16

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 12:35:15 PM

MileHighM

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Joined: 10/8/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I don't know about spec... HF tools really suck.

By spec I mean the buyer in the u.s. specifies exactly what they want. The chinese just make what we ask them to.
I do not waste my time with hf tools.

We use 1$/watt US made panels on our systems.

Where are you getting $1/watt american made pannels?
I have been off grid for 25 years and even used pannels cost $3/watt and up.

Problem with those cheap chinese panels is their falure rate. By the time you are done replacing the shit ones, the price ends up being nearly on parity.

So far I have had no feedback on the chinese pannels from those I know in the solar business. the only chinese pannels I have heard anything about are the line tie units and nothing on stand alone systems

---Spec, I was implying that US buyers don't even bother with it, they see what ever shit they can get cheap and sell it regardless.

Last job we quoted the panels by themselves were in the $1/W range. I don't want to get our wholesale arrangements in jeopordy by disclosing our company's trade agreements. We only save 0.1-0.15$/w on the chinese panels wholesale. Retail you still get hosed.

You won't get much feed back on small system instals of Chinese solar, one they are often made by US companies in china and meet higher specs, two the average consumer won't realize their system is underperforming. They don't go out and test their stuff. Utility scale is a real difference. Often the cheaper Chinese products just don't live up to their spec. Same with batteries. American batteries will see 500-600 80% DoD cycles before significantly depreciated. Chinese ones will only see about 200-300 cycles. Considering you only save 40% on the chinese, they are no value if you do the math.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 17

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 4:48:55 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I don't know about spec... HF tools really suck.

By spec I mean the buyer in the u.s. specifies exactly what they want. The chinese just make what we ask them to.
I do not waste my time with hf tools.

We use 1$/watt US made panels on our systems.

Where are you getting $1/watt american made pannels?
I have been off grid for 25 years and even used pannels cost $3/watt and up.

Problem with those cheap chinese panels is their falure rate. By the time you are done replacing the shit ones, the price ends up being nearly on parity.

So far I have had no feedback on the chinese pannels from those I know in the solar business. the only chinese pannels I have heard anything about are the line tie units and nothing on stand alone systems

---Spec, I was implying that US buyers don't even bother with it, they see what ever shit they can get cheap and sell it regardless.

That is not how it works. Everything that comes here is made to the buyers specifications...including snap-on tools...yes I have been in the factory where they are made and snap-on has their own qc guys there to make sure. Try to find "made in the usa" on a snap on tool. It says "snap-on usa" which is the companys name and not where they are made.

Last job we quoted the panels by themselves were in the $1/W range. I don't want to get our wholesale arrangements in jeopordy by disclosing our company's trade agreements. We only save 0.1-0.15$/w on the chinese panels wholesale. Retail you still get hosed.

Retail in southern california is about $8/watt...I have heard from others that the prices are similar in co.

You won't get much feed back on small system instals of Chinese solar, one they are often made by US companies in china and meet higher specs,

I think I mentioned that in an earlier post as well as this one...that china will make what you ask the to.

two the average consumer won't realize their system is underperforming.

You obviously know a different type of consumer than I do. Everyone I know who is on solar understands their system fully.

They don't go out and test their stuff. Utility scale is a real difference. Often the cheaper Chinese products just don't live up to their spec. Same with batteries. American batteries will see 500-600 80% DoD cycles before significantly depreciated.

I do not use golf cart batteries. Mine (american made 2 volt 600 amp) have more than 7000 cycles and are still performing to the projected curve.

Chinese ones will only see about 200-300 cycles. Considering you only save 40% on the chinese, they are no value if you do the math.

I have spoken with some of the chinese battery manufactures who exhibit at the ces(consumer electronics show) in las vegas. I did not find any signifcant price difference for their premium line when shipping costs were added.

(in reply to MileHighM)

Post #: 18

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 6:16:25 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

Sam,

how about the wireless magnifying transmitter that transmits power anywhere in the world with astronomical gain? Been around since 1899 proven to work by professor konstantin meyl at glauscauand 2 other german universities with gains of 1000% far field with no tweaking. Every GW transforms to 1000.... I could live with that.

Why not the transmitter?

Imagine one transmitter for every 5gw mill! With the hi Q they can be used at very close proximity to each other frequency wise.

I think its time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuJPz88jUbM

Now contrary to rumors and fear mongers there is no danger since there is no radiation like with a television or radio transmitter.

A demonstration of Nikola Tesla's theory of the transmission of power without the use of wires using EM 'Scalar Waves'. Demonstration by Professor Dr. Konstantin Meyl of Germany.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/14/2011 6:22:37 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 19

RE: China's clobbering us in wind power.... - 9/14/2011 7:04:28 PM

dovie

Posts: 1211
Status: offline

FR,

China is clobbering us in EVERYTHING!...just wait...
HA!

dovie

_____________________________

"Sometimes love is a nice long lick!"

gentle dove with 38's *the kind you shoot with*

(in reply to samboct)

Post #: 20

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