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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 3:59:06 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

It's the same rationale.
No, just the opposite. bad breath and rotting teeth are not a possibility, they are an actuality.

Look, any attempt to equate bisexuality with any physical trait is simply irrelevant. The whole point is that it isn't a discernible physical trait, it isn't even anything that exists, it is the possibility of something. It is akin to saying you aren't sexually attracted to somebody who might vote Liberal. It is not a sexual preference, it is an conscious choice masked as a preference.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:02:10 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

invisible and only exists as a possibility
Pay attention or go home.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:07:40 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Bigoted suggests intolerance.
And you don't see rejecting a person on the basis that he might be able to find a man sexy as being intolerant?


No, because if a woman isn't attracted to someone who is attracted to men, it's about who that woman is sexually interested in..not about being intolerant. If it were about intolerance, she would also dismiss that man outright for being bisexual.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

It's the same rationale.
No, just the opposite. bad breath and rotting teeth are not a possibility, they are an actuality.

Look, any attempt to equate bisexuality with any physical trait is simply irrelevant. The whole point is that it isn't a discernible physical trait, it isn't even anything that exists, it is the possibility of something. It is akin to saying you aren't sexually attracted to somebody who might vote Liberal. It is not a sexual preference, it is an conscious choice masked as a preference.


Like I said before, you and I see this differently. Your argument hasn't convinced me. Regardless of whether something is a physical or a non-physical trait, it all boils down to what a person is attracted to or not attracted to in a mate. It isn't bigotry.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:15:31 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Fine, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided and unrelated to fact it may be. Enjoy being wrong.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:18:48 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Excuse the very fuck out of me, but I am home. You referenced the invisibility of sexual attraction more than once, Mr. Pig:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Exactly!! And that is why she is wrong. Bisexuality is an indiscernible trait, therefore one must learn to dislike it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Oh I did, but I didn't reference it because the anti bisexual thing isn't a sexual preference. It is bigotry, it is rejecting a person based on an invisible and undiscernable ability to find a person sexy. See, it can't be a sexual preference because it is an irrational rejection of a possibility rather than an actuality.


You should have taken the time to read the second article.

Dr. LeVay said he believed from animal experiments that the size differences in the hypothalamic region he had studied arose before birth, perhaps in response to differences in the circulating level of sex hormones. Both his finding and Dr. Savic's suggest that the hypothalamus is specifically organized in relation to sexual orientation, he said.Some researchers believe there is likely to be a genetic component of homosexuality because of its concordance among twins. The occurrence of male homosexuality in both members of a twin pair is 22 percent in nonidentical twins but rises to 52 percent in identical twins.

I agree with your basic premise, Arpig, prejudice against homosexuals or bisexuals is a learned behavior. The scientific question is: How far back in our genetic history did we learn it?
And what part does it play in sexual selection and the criteria our reptile brains use for reproductive success?

There is no doubt based on some of the responses to this thread, that some prejudice against homosexuals or bisexuals is based on ignorant bigotry (Des' comments come to mind).

I am, however, pointing out that when you are speaking of human sexual attraction, you do have to be careful making such as broad statements as you have done.

Edited b/c I am a bad girl who did not make it clear I was quoting from one of the articles.


< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 9/18/2011 4:21:08 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:26:28 AM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
quote:

Are You saying only prejudice against discernible traits counts as bigotry?


Noooo...just the opposite.

So, You're saying that only prejudice against indiscernible traits counts as bigotry?  Then prejudice against gender or race does not count as bigotry, since those are (what i would call) discernible traits?  i don't understand You, which is why i asked...

quote:

What is a discernible trait?


quote:

How of curiosity, how do You respond to the "i wouldn't submit to a fat Dominant" threads?


That would depend on the reason for the rejection. If it were that fat people turned him/her off, then it is a sexual preference. If it is because they think that by definition being fat means one isn't dominant, then it is bigotry and stupidity to boot.


Now i'm really confused.  Are You saying that it is, or is not, bigotry to reject someone because of your own sexual preference?  And if it is NOT bigotry to reject someone who turns you off because they're fat, why would it be bigotry to reject someone who turns you off because they're bisexual?  (Or, for that matter, ugly, or stupid, or poor, or a bad cook, or anything else?)


pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/18/2011 4:27:40 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:30:20 AM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		Not quite, in the posts you quoted I used the word indiscernible, which does not mean the same thing as invisible, which is why I added the extra qualifier when I used the word invisible.
quote:

How far back in our genetic history did we learn it?
Nowhere, each of us learns it some time after we are born. We are not born disliking G/B/L people, we learn to.
quote:

There is no doubt based on some of the responses to this thread, that some prejudice against homosexuals or bisexuals is based on ignorant bigotry (Des' comments come to mind).
No shit, eh?
quote:

when you are speaking of human sexual attraction
That's just it, I'm not speaking of sexual attraction at all, I am speaking of a learned behaviour, a conscious choice to accept and hold as true an irrational idea.


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:30:56 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Fine, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided and unrelated to fact it may be. Enjoy being wrong.


Right back at ya! :D

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:36:35 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Fine, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided and unrelated to fact it may be. Enjoy being wrong.


Right back at ya! :D


Except he isn't wrong. Misconceptions and dislike of someone based on their sexual preferences IS learned behaviour.


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:38:50 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

So, You're saying that only prejudice against indiscernible traits counts as bigotry? Then prejudice against gender or race does not count as bigotry, since those are (what i would call) discernible traits? i don't understand You, which is why i asked...
No a SEXUAL PREFERENCE based on gender or race does not count as bigotry.

quote:

Now i'm really confused.  Are You saying that it is, or is not, bigotry to reject someone because of your own sexual preference?  And if it is NOT bigotry to reject someone who turns you off because they're fat, why would it be bigotry to reject someone who turns you off because they're bisexual?  (Or, for that matter, ugly, or stupid, or poor, or a bad cook, or anything else?)
OK each in turn...
- It is not.
- Because being fat is a discernible trait that exists, while bisexuality is an indiscernible trait that only allows for something, it isn't something that exists, it merely indicates a possibility.
- Because ugly, poor, bad cook are actual existent traits.

To use your fat analogy, saying you are not attracted to a bi person is the equivalent of saying you are not attracted to somebody who can become fat.


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:41:55 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Fine, you're entitled to your own opinion, no matter how misguided and unrelated to fact it may be. Enjoy being wrong.


Right back at ya! :D


Except he isn't wrong. Misconceptions and dislike of someone based on their sexual preferences IS learned behaviour.



Excuse me, but I never stated anything like that at all. Please reference where I did. You certainly are twisting my perspective on this.

He's wrong in stating that a sexual preference is based on bigotry. Sexual preference is a separate entity from how one would treat another based on their sexual preferences. I'm not sexually attracted to women, but surprise! I have women friends, including straight, bi and homosexual.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:43:38 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

No a SEXUAL PREFERENCE based on ... race does not count as bigotry.


Seriously?


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:47:08 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

...bisexuality is an indiscernible trait that only allows for something, it isn't something that exists, it merely indicates a possibility.


If a person considers themselves bisexual and has engaged in same sex activities, then it's no longer a possibility. It actually happened. It exists.


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:51:44 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

Excuse me, but I never stated anything like that at all. Please reference where I did. You certainly are twisting my perspective on this.


Sigh...

He said "enjoy being wrong". You said "back at ya!" I commented that he is not wrong, misconceptions and dislike of someone based on their sexual preferences IS learned behaviour. How did that become twisting your words?

quote:

He's wrong in stating that a sexual preference is based on bigotry


He isn't. He's saying excluding someone on the basis of believing that person will behave in a certain way (for example always leaving someone of the opposite sex for someone of the same sex) is bigotry.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:55:39 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

If a person considers themselves bisexual and has engaged in same sex activities, then it's no longer a possibility. It actually happened. It exists.
Note the qualifier. This changes the entire equation, does it not?

However, in this case, it is not the bisexuality that is the issue, it is the engaging in same sex activity.


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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:56:31 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

Excuse me, but I never stated anything like that at all. Please reference where I did. You certainly are twisting my perspective on this.


Sigh...

He said "enjoy being wrong". You said "back at ya!" I commented that he is not wrong, misconceptions and dislike of someone based on their sexual preferences IS learned behaviour. How did that become twisting your words?


He never used the words misconceptions and dislike. He has stated over and over again that it's bigotry to have a preference that excludes bisexual individuals. You're mixing up two very different ideas.


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth
quote:

He's wrong in stating that a sexual preference is based on bigotry


He isn't. He's saying excluding someone on the basis of believing that person will behave in a certain way (for example always leaving someone of the opposite sex for someone of the same sex) is bigotry.


Yes, he is and has stated over and over again that a particular sexual preference is based on bigotry.


Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by DeviantlyD -- 9/18/2011 4:57:39 AM >

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:57:36 AM   
GreedyTop


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jeezus..
the past several pages of this thread have me confuzzled...

for a moment, I agree with one person, then they say something that is so totally CRAP that I wonder why I agreed in the first place. Then the next person I agree with does the same thing.


I give up.

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 4:58:58 AM   
DeviantlyD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

If a person considers themselves bisexual and has engaged in same sex activities, then it's no longer a possibility. It actually happened. It exists.
Note the qualifier. This changes the entire equation, does it not?

However, in this case, it is not the bisexuality that is the issue, it is the engaging in same sex activity.



What??

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 5:01:30 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

~FR~

jeezus..
the past several pages of this thread have me confuzzled...

for a moment, I agree with one person, then they say something that is so totally CRAP that I wonder why I agreed in the first place. Then the next person I agree with does the same thing.


I give up.


Then just agree with me. Simples!

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RE: Would you be less inclined to submit to a man who'd... - 9/18/2011 5:02:47 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Seriously?
Yes seriously. It is based on an actual physical trait, no different than a preference for redheads.

Look, either have a coffee or go to bed, it's 2 AM for you and you're obviously not wide awake.


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