RE: Prenups

RE: Prenups (Full Version)

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HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:02:24 PM)
quote: I trust my family to never do that to my wife, but I would want to protect her all the same. So you in fact don't trust them, because if you did, then you wouldn't need to make a legal document insuring they don't do it. You keep saying you trust people not to do something, and then in the same breath you say you will write up a contract to make sure they don't do what you trust them not to do. Please explain how that works, why if you trust them do you need to make sure?

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:04:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: I trust my family to never do that to my wife, but I would want to protect her all the same. So you in fact don't trust them, because if you did, then you wouldn't need to make a legal document insuring they don't do it. You keep saying you trust people not to do something, and then in the same breath you say you will write up a contract to make sure they don't do what you trust them not to do. Please explain how that works, why if you trust them do you need to make sure? Jesus fuck. I give up.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:06:22 PM)
Which takes precedence, a will or a pre-nup?

barelynangel -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:07:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather Well of course it is about trusting ME, they are asking ME to sign an agreement so it is ME who's trustworthiness is in question. And I'm sorry, but I fail to see how not having a pre-nup would in any way compromise anybody's integrity. I'd really like an explanation of this ridiculous idea. And why would it be emotional blackmail for me to say I won't marry if she insists on a pre-nup, but not for her to say she won't marry unless I sign one? Or maybe its simply about protecting something they promised to protect and has nothing to do with trusting you but instead is them ASKING YOU to help them protect it. YOUR words Heather, you stated loud and clear that "If whatever promise she made was more important to her than marrying me, then I wouldn't marry her. I wouldn't marry somebody who did not see marrying me to be the most important thing in their life. " You have clearly stated above that if someone needed you to sign a prenup because of a promise they made to protect assets they have, you would demand they break that promise and compromise their integrity IF they want to marry you. Demanding someone to break a promise and, if they DO, they are in fact compromising their integrity. To me, if i were you, i would be more concerned that they throw the prenup away to marry you and by doing so they willingly compromise their integrity. Your trust seems to be focused on their proving their love by chosing you over their promise even if it mean compromising their integrity. See your words above. As i have stated, it depends on how its approached. But what i am speaking about is if they need to protect assets from a dissolution of the marraige and you demand they disregard that promise in order to marry you -- to me, that is emotional blackmail. All in all, its a conflicting concept and a very unromantic one. A lot of people see being asked to sign one as a sign of distrust. You aren't alone. My issue was based on the protection concept people were speaking about that had to do with promises. To me, that is connected to integrity. angel

tazzygirl -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:08:00 PM)
Whichever was written first... as in all legal documents.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:08:27 PM)
quote: Jesus fuck. I give up. I find people do that a lot when their position is illogical and they are asked to explain the contradictions of it.

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:09:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: Jesus fuck. I give up. I find people do that a lot when their position is illogical and they are asked to explain the contradictions of it. OK, dear.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:18:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: Jesus fuck. I give up. I find people do that a lot when their position is illogical and they are asked to explain the contradictions of it. There's nothing illogical about her posts, her opinion just doesn't agree with yours.

barelynangel -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:24:25 PM)
Actually Tazzy that isn't necessarily true, it would depend what the will says, if the wife and husband have a mirrored will, by signing her will she could very well trump the prenup for the will. It depends what the prenup actually says. Or the parties could negotiate something different in the will which the spouse wants more so the prenup while it may still stand with regard to divorce, the will stands in case of death. In and of itself, a prenup is a contract so one would think that it was as simple as which came first but no, that isn't necessarily true. It's all in the wording of each document. angel

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:27:32 PM)
Sorry angel, legal dumbass here, what's a mirrored will?

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather Well of course it is about trusting ME, they are asking ME to sign an agreement so it is ME who's trustworthiness is in question. And I'm sorry, but I fail to see how not having a pre-nup would in any way compromise anybody's integrity. I'd really like an explanation of this ridiculous idea. And why would it be emotional blackmail for me to say I won't marry if she insists on a pre-nup, but not for her to say she won't marry unless I sign one? Or maybe its simply about protecting something they promised to protect and has nothing to do with trusting you but instead is them ASKING YOU to help them protect it. YOUR words Heather, you stated loud and clear that "If whatever promise she made was more important to her than marrying me, then I wouldn't marry her. I wouldn't marry somebody who did not see marrying me to be the most important thing in their life. " You have clearly stated above that if someone needed you to sign a prenup because of a promise they made to protect assets they have, you would demand they break that promise and compromise their integrity IF they want to marry you. Demanding someone to break a promise and, if they DO, they are in fact compromising their integrity. To me, if i were you, i would be more concerned that they throw the prenup away to marry you and by doing so they willingly compromise their integrity. Your trust seems to be focused on their proving their love by chosing you over their promise even if it mean compromising their integrity. See your words above. As i have stated, it depends on how its approached. But what i am speaking about is if they need to protect assets from a dissolution of the marraige and you demand they disregard that promise in order to marry you -- to me, that is emotional blackmail. All in all, its a conflicting concept and a very unromantic one. A lot of people see being asked to sign one as a sign of distrust. You aren't alone. My issue was based on the protection concept people were speaking about that had to do with promises. To me, that is connected to integrity. angel Yeah, and in my heart I completely understand that and can empathise. It's probably going to be difficult to get a future wife to understand that it's not about me trusting her, or trusting my family, it's about protection and the commitments to family. The prenup will honour my commitments to my father, and leaving her a sum in the event of my death would protect my wife. I trust my family, but as her spouse, it's my duty to ensure that she's taken care of if I die. I trust that my father would not leave my spouse without nothing, but it's not his place to provide for her, it's mine. I don't see this as any different than a life insurance policy. ETA: The money I'd leave her isn't connected with my father at all, so I wouldn't be giving away assets that don't belong to me.

barelynangel -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:32:51 PM)
lol sorry, it's not the technical term. Its when the wills of each mirror each other as to each spouse's will pretty much say the same thing they just change the names around. angel

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:33:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth Sorry angel, legal dumbass here, what's a mirrored will? When a husband and wife make almost identical wills.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:34:16 PM)
Oh okay lol. Here I was thinking there was a cool legal term. <grins>

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:45:30 PM)
Unless they had specifically promised that they would sign a pre-nup, then not having one wouldn't be breaking their promise now would it? Marrying a person who wouldn't touch the assets would be well within any promise to protect those assets. And I didn't say, clearly or in any other manner, that I would demand anything, what I said was that I wouldn't marry them. There would be no negotiation, if they ask for a pre-nup, there will be no marriage. It's that simple, there is no demanding anything from anybody, just I won't marry somebody who wanted me to sign a pre-nuptial agreement, not because the agreement may be good, bad, or otherwise, but because I am clearly not the person they should marry. If they change their mind later, then I am still the same person, and thus still not the person they should be marrying, and so there still would not be a marriage <unless they could convince me that they really had had a major change of heart>. Especially if they had originally said they were bound by a promise, in that case I most certainly would not marry them if they decided to go against their promise. So there is no issue of integrity being compromised.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 1:50:18 PM)
quote: There's nothing illogical about her posts, her opinion just doesn't agree with yours. The illogical part is insisting that there is no question of trust, yet still insisting on signing a contract to make sure the person doesn't do what you trust them not to do.

tj444 -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 2:03:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CeriseNin Yeah, and in my heart I completely understand that and can empathise. It's probably going to be difficult to get a future wife to understand that it's not about me trusting her, or trusting my family, it's about protection and the commitments to family. The prenup will honour my commitments to my father, and leaving her a sum in the event of my death would protect my wife. I trust my family, but as her spouse, it's my duty to ensure that she's taken care of if I die. I trust that my father would not leave my spouse without nothing, but it's not his place to provide for her, it's mine. I don't see this as any different than a life insurance policy. ETA: The money I'd leave her isn't connected with my father at all, so I wouldn't be giving away assets that don't belong to me. just out of curiousity, do you have kids presently that those family assets/money would be passed on to? if not then who in the family do they go to? Has your family utilized tools like trusts to do that? Also, i wonder just how well future generations are prepared to handle family assets/money, many times fortunes are lost when handed to a generation that spends like lotto winners.. (sorry, this might seem sort of off topic but imo, certain things are related) Thinking of my ex & his family with this part.. I certainly didnt marry my ex cuz of his money (I knew he personally didnt have any lol) even tho his brother & SIL insinuated that i was after my ex's future inheritance.. As it turned out, the brother & SIL scammed as much as they could of the family fortune by conning the mother before she even passed on (my ex told me he never got much of an inheritance)...

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 2:08:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather quote: There's nothing illogical about her posts, her opinion just doesn't agree with yours. The illogical part is insisting that there is no question of trust, yet still insisting on signing a contract to make sure the person doesn't do what you trust them not to do. It's not all about HER. I have explained umpteen times that it's about my family and the fact that I didn't earn any of the assets. They aren't mine to share, according to my personal ethics, and ongoing commitments to my family. If a woman I might marry still insists that this shit is about HER no matter what I say or how I tell her I feel, she can take her self-centred ass some place else.

CeriseNin -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 2:11:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: CeriseNin Yeah, and in my heart I completely understand that and can empathise. It's probably going to be difficult to get a future wife to understand that it's not about me trusting her, or trusting my family, it's about protection and the commitments to family. The prenup will honour my commitments to my father, and leaving her a sum in the event of my death would protect my wife. I trust my family, but as her spouse, it's my duty to ensure that she's taken care of if I die. I trust that my father would not leave my spouse without nothing, but it's not his place to provide for her, it's mine. I don't see this as any different than a life insurance policy. ETA: The money I'd leave her isn't connected with my father at all, so I wouldn't be giving away assets that don't belong to me. just out of curiousity, do you have kids presently that those family assets/money would be passed on to? if not then who in the family do they go to? Has your family utilized tools like trusts to do that? Also, i wonder just how well future generations are prepared to handle family assets/money, many times fortunes are lost when handed to a generation that spends like lotto winners.. (sorry, this might seem sort of off topic but imo, certain things are related) Thinking of my ex & his family with this part.. I certainly didnt marry my ex cuz of his money (I knew he personally didnt have any lol) even tho his brother & SIL insinuated that i was after my ex's future inheritance.. As it turned out, the brother & SIL scammed as much as they could of the family fortune by conning the mother before she even passed on (my ex told me he never got much of an inheritance)... No kids. Siblings. Yes.

DesFIP -> RE: Prenups (9/25/2011 2:15:54 PM)
There is a way around that, have your father's assets go into a trust which gives income to you during your lifetime and then goes to his grandchildren at your death. Usually one third will be given immediately and the two thirds held in trust. Trustee has the right to go into the principal if you need it for medical reasons. Bills paid directly. Even if you do trust your brother, do you trust the woman he may marry in ten years time?

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