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Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 3:41:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 4:18:28 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Could this be why some companies are borrowing $500 million from our government and then declaring bankruptcy and taking the fifth when questioned about it?

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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 4:24:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Could this be why some companies are borrowing $500 million from our government and then declaring bankruptcy and taking the fifth when questioned about it?

It is partially why. Solyndra was betting on alternative solar technology getting better faster than traditional photovoltaics. It is a bet they lost. Which is a natural part of all emergent technologies. Different people will have different approaches to the same goal and some will work and some will not.

The important part is that PV tech is getting so cheap and effective it is nearly to the point where it will be counter productive to not put panels on every appopriate roof.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 4:47:32 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.



Okay. Let's say I get myself a set of twenty. I put them on the roof. Now. . . what does that mean for ME?

How much did they cost? How cost-effective are they? Is there some way to 'save' the energy for night-time or cloudy days? If everything in the house ran off of electricity, would this allow me to be 'off-grid?'


Do you happen to know the answers?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 4:51:14 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		But what about the taxes? If people stop buying electricity, oil and coal, the lost revenue will have to be made up by a tax on the number of solar panels one has on his roof.

It is perhaps easiest to count the square meters of solar panels from space. This will be a business opportunity for a good programmer.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 6:32:21 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		The title's misleading.  Cost and complexity continues to fall, not cost and simplicity.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 6:39:09 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.

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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 6:46:30 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.



Okay. Let's say I get myself a set of twenty. I put them on the roof. Now. . . what does that mean for ME?

How much did they cost? How cost-effective are they? Is there some way to 'save' the energy for night-time or cloudy days? If everything in the house ran off of electricity, would this allow me to be 'off-grid?'


Do you happen to know the answers?


There are two basic configurations that I am aware of. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. The first, and probably easiest is to feed back into the grid. So technically, if you made enough electricity, the power company would be paying you. At the worst, your power bill would be significantly less.  The setup for it is basically the cells, the wiring, a cutoff switch or breaker that trips when the power fails so you don't end up electrocuting the lineman who comes to fixed the downed lines, and the maintenance.

The second way is to go off grid, which means to save the electricity you first must make more than you consume during the day, and second have a bank of batteries to hold the extra charge. The amount of power you will make will vary with the seasons and with the weather. So it's a safety net even for those intending to go off grid, to at least have a breaker or way of either automatically reconnecting to the grid if power levels are low, or manually doing so.

If you're going to use the power, you have another issue to deal with, namely that power cells produce DC power, while most of your appliances use AC. That means part of your wiring costs will be an inverter - I think. It's been a while. An inverter may actually produce DC from AC. Either way, you'll have to convert or move to DC appliances - which have no huge market. In fact, outside of boat, RV, and automotive circles, it's pretty much a niche market (means it costs a lot more).

Most feed back into the grid as it is the easy way to go, and a sensible way to go. So how long will it take you to recoup your costs? Well, a few years ago, more years than it was worth. Seriously, by the time you got into the black - even after government tax credits - you'd probably be replacing some of the hardware.

I like solar power. I pretty much used it exclusively on my last sailboat without an issue - but the marine market for trailerable sailboats - figure 26 feet and under for the most part - is geared around DC power so there are plenty of options.


_____________________________


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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 6:54:39 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.



Roughly 65x39

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 7:13:23 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


You cannot answer that except at a statewide level, maybe even more localized.  The ideal location is one with lots of sun and lots of cold days.  Colorado is a good site, and we have NREL here.  Places like San Diego (too warm) and Wisconsin (too little sun) aren't as good.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 7:15:14 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


You cannot answer that except at a statewide level, maybe even more localized.  The ideal location is one with lots of sun and lots of cold days.  Colorado is a good site, and we have NREL here.  Places like San Diego (too warm) and Wisconsin (too little sun) aren't as good.



Why lots of cold days? If you were using electricity for both A/C and your heater, I cannot see the difference.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 8:15:22 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


You cannot answer that except at a statewide level, maybe even more localized.  The ideal location is one with lots of sun and lots of cold days.  Colorado is a good site, and we have NREL here.  Places like San Diego (too warm) and Wisconsin (too little sun) aren't as good.



their claim is 4 years in NY and 5 years in CA

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Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 8:18:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


You cannot answer that except at a statewide level, maybe even more localized.  The ideal location is one with lots of sun and lots of cold days.  Colorado is a good site, and we have NREL here.  Places like San Diego (too warm) and Wisconsin (too little sun) aren't as good.



Why lots of cold days? If you were using electricity for both A/C and your heater, I cannot see the difference.


I assume that heating is more efficient than AC.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 8:24:07 PM   
ClassIsInSession


Posts: 305
Joined: 7/26/2010
Status: offline 		The hardest thing I've had a time understanding is the watt to kilowatt equations. For instance, that 235 Watt setup, will produce how many kilowatts a month. If it's just producing 235 watts that might run one appliance all month, but I can never seem to get a straight answer on how much it would take to actually power the whole house including the HVAC, water heater, etc.

It's something I'm keen to do ASAP, but it would seem to me they could make it a lot easier to understand.


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/26/2011 9:16:53 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The hardest thing I've had a time understanding is the watt to kilowatt equations. For instance, that 235 Watt setup, will produce how many kilowatts a month. If it's just producing 235 watts that might run one appliance all month, but I can never seem to get a straight answer on how much it would take to actually power the whole house including the HVAC, water heater, etc.

It's something I'm keen to do ASAP, but it would seem to me they could make it a lot easier to understand.




Very roughly it would take about 30 of the Westinghouse panels to run an average household in an area that gets 5 hours of effective sun a day, also prettty average. They run about $600 each so it would cost about $20k installed to run the entire household. I believe that includes about an 80% efficiency factor.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/27/2011 6:04:31 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.



Okay. Let's say I get myself a set of twenty. I put them on the roof. Now. . . what does that mean for ME?

How much did they cost? How cost-effective are they? Is there some way to 'save' the energy for night-time or cloudy days? If everything in the house ran off of electricity, would this allow me to be 'off-grid?'


Do you happen to know the answers?


There are two basic configurations that I am aware of. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. The first, and probably easiest is to feed back into the grid. So technically, if you made enough electricity, the power company would be paying you. At the worst, your power bill would be significantly less.  The setup for it is basically the cells, the wiring, a cutoff switch or breaker that trips when the power fails so you don't end up electrocuting the lineman who comes to fixed the downed lines, and the maintenance.

The second way is to go off grid, which means to save the electricity you first must make more than you consume during the day, and second have a bank of batteries to hold the extra charge. The amount of power you will make will vary with the seasons and with the weather. So it's a safety net even for those intending to go off grid, to at least have a breaker or way of either automatically reconnecting to the grid if power levels are low, or manually doing so.

The panels I posted about include a built in inverter so they are meant solely for the sell to the grid option.

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/27/2011 6:08:49 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/westinghouse-solar-releases-affordable-rooftop-solar-kits-2011-09-26
http://www.westinghousesolar.com/index.php/ac-kits

A 235W panel with all mounting hardware which can be mostly installed by a competent DIYer available at Lowes. The previous generation was 185W for $650. They seem to think you can fit 20 on a residential roof but I can't find the dimensions anywhere.



Okay. Let's say I get myself a set of twenty. I put them on the roof. Now. . . what does that mean for ME?

How much did they cost? How cost-effective are they? Is there some way to 'save' the energy for night-time or cloudy days? If everything in the house ran off of electricity, would this allow me to be 'off-grid?'


Do you happen to know the answers?

These panels would not let you go off grid since they are not setup to charge batteries for storage of the electricity they generate. At present it would require living in a very consistently sunny place in a very well insulated home with many choices made solely on reducing power consumption to go entirely off grid with simply a roof top solar array.

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/27/2011 6:36:33 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


You cannot answer that except at a statewide level, maybe even more localized.  The ideal location is one with lots of sun and lots of cold days.  Colorado is a good site, and we have NREL here.  Places like San Diego (too warm) and Wisconsin (too little sun) aren't as good.



Why lots of cold days? If you were using electricity for both A/C and your heater, I cannot see the difference.


Solar energy is in the form of light.  It is fairly efficient to convert light to heat.  It is not so efficient to convert light to electricity.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/27/2011 6:44:30 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

How long before they start to pay for themselves ? 5 years, 10 years or maybe even more ? December in Wisconsin is cold and a very cloudy month. I'm not putting one on my roof.


All the communities in which I have lived in MA, NY, and FL will come in and do energy audits if you are a homeowner. Not sure about renter. They will tell you, if you do this, it will cost that, and will take this long to pay for itself. They can hook you up with rebate programs, etc. It's a great program.


(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/27/2011 6:51:10 AM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline 		Personally, I'd be happy with the power company paying me, or at least having a significant reduction in the power bill. Off grid doesn't make a whole lot of practical sense, though it is possible. Just an fyi for you off-griders. My brother initially wanted to go that route on some remote property he owns. Aside from solar, he looked at installing either windmills and/or a water driven generator.

The costs were much higher, and there were some issues with permits related to the water driven generator that had to come from the feds. Now that's coming from a general conversation I had with him 10 years ago that didn't go deep on specifics, so I can't testify as to what those permits might have been.

Also, there are, or were at least, tax credits available for upgrading to solar power. It's been a while, but if I remember right you could get up to a third of the costs in the form of a tax credit. Like all things, conditions and exemptions probably apply so do not take my word for it.

I think it was Wilbur above who came up with the 20k number. That sounds about right. I don't know what the average electric bill nationwide would be.. figure $200 a month averaged out over the year, and it's what... 8 or 9 years of zero electric bills to break even?

That's better than it used to be. I can tell ya, if costs drop enough, I'll be up on the roof installing some of them.



_____________________________


--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 20
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