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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 6:37:48 PM   
Termyn8or


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We've been through this I think RealO, the main reason is because the electric motor's torque range extends to zero RPM. Get the right gears in the tranny and it will go like hell. But there are also disadvantages.

But you have not addressed whether the motor in your favortite coupe there has magnets or not. Permanent magnets do lose their magnetism over time. If the motor has electromagnets for both rotor and stator, this will not happen.

Also, they might be BSL permanent mag motors usiong VF control, as I described earlier. They're using it for blowers and water/brine pumps in large HVAC installations now so apparently it's not all that unreliable. They do genetic research where my buddy works and environmental control is nothing to take lightly. In fact there are rooms in which it is REQUIRED to always maintain a negative air pressure. And that's not even where they keep the ebola and all the really cool shit. And with all that, being a big place (Case) and having their share (or more) of bean counters, they are very energy concious. I mean they make Ebenezer Scrooge look like Santa Claus. If you have ever looked into slot cars, you know that efficiency means performance.

T^T

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 6:43:16 PM   
Termyn8or


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"AC is also safer than equivalent DC. AC will tend to throw your hand off if you make contact while DC may cause your muscles to contract and make you hold on to the live wire. "

I just renoticed that BTW. You know that one of the major arguments against AC was that it was more suited for use in the electric chair. I don't know if that's actually true, but it is supposedly what the proponents of DC were saying at the time.

T^T

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 6:53:37 PM   
Termyn8or


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"I'm looking at refinancing the building within a year and as I have about 40% equity I can take out enough cash out to do the panels. "

I recommend you do wind as well. There is a new kind of windmill, extremely efficient and does not have to face the wind. It's lke a squirrel cage type blower. If you just get up enough for that, you might not be in hock up to your eyebrows.

I just perved you and found that you're in Tennessee, is that where the property is ? For solar the location is better than Ohio, but it's still not the best.

What's more wind and solar can go well together. Rainy days usualy come with wind. Maybe a total DC system using both....... Get the wind first and use whatever you can save or make offa that (they are the same thing really) and get the solar gradually. Plus as time goes on two things happen, one is that mass production occurs and brings down prices, another thing is that newer designs come out and that could make it all better as well. Plus all the time hopefully you have less debt service (overall).

Just a thought.

T^T

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 7:08:23 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

There are however some things in the house that absolutely need AC power, but their dominance is diminshing. Most things with big motors need AC. Your furnace/AC blowers and AC compressors are usually AC only. Anything that uses a conventional power transformer as well.
T^T





But as pointed out earlier, the majority of appliances that use AC currently only do so because that is the standard obtaining as of now. Some industrial use of DC motors indicates that there might be an advantage in their circumstance. When Chicago was powered by DC in the old days, all appliances were DC, whould'a thunk it?


As for audio, not sure where you are coming from here. Whether tube/valve or solid state, the upper-echelon power amplifiers and preamps' cost is most directly related to ability of the power supply to provide clean as possible DC (and lots of current) to the relevant circuits, the emitter, the filaments, etc. There is some strong argument that directly heated triodes  (DHT) produce better sound with AC feeding the cathode, but outside of that subjective consideration, you pay extra for DC to the filaments or emitter, for good reason. It reduces power line noise that eventually makes its way to your speakers.

Of course, one could hook up with the nearest electronics surplus store and get a serious 5k VA isolation transformer for $500 or oftentimes less than that and save $500-$4,000 in esoteric interconnects and power chords, but then ...


Sorry, I digress.






(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 8:49:03 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"AC is also safer than equivalent DC. AC will tend to throw your hand off if you make contact while DC may cause your muscles to contract and make you hold on to the live wire. "

I just renoticed that BTW. You know that one of the major arguments against AC was that it was more suited for use in the electric chair. I don't know if that's actually true, but it is supposedly what the proponents of DC were saying at the time.

T^T

AC will kill you if you are held against the live connection, assuming enough voltage and amps. But as I said the AC will tnd to cause your muscles to both contract and relaxand therefore tend to knock your hand off if you make an accidental contact. DC can cause your muscles to contract and make you grip hold of whatever is shocking you.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 11:27:24 PM   
shallowdeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The hardest thing I've had a time understanding is the watt to kilowatt equations. For instance, that 235 Watt setup, will produce how many kilowatts a month. If it's just producing 235 watts that might run one appliance all month, but I can never seem to get a straight answer on how much it would take to actually power the whole house including the HVAC, water heater, etc.

It's something I'm keen to do ASAP, but it would seem to me they could make it a lot easier to understand.

To convert power from watts to kilowatts is simply division by 1000, but I'm guessing you probably meant kilowatt-hours (kWh) instead, the unit of energy you see on electric bills? There isn't a simple answer for how much energy will be produced by a panel given only the nominal peak power, as it depends on the capacity factor for the installation. Capacity factors will vary with the location and how the panels are placed, among other things. For fixed residential PV, the factor tends to be less than 20% of the peak DC power rating. The NREL maintains a performance calculator to help easily estimate what sort of energy output a given installation can be expected to produce. There's also a more comprehensive program, System Advisor Model, available for download that can consider a few additional factors and also has more comprehensive financial analysis tools. It's a bit less sanguine than the press release on payback periods.

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 11:52:19 PM   
Edwynn


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The payback period for subsidies to oil companies has been 130 years and counting. It appears as though that will never cease.

I wonder if other sources would take as long? Germany has been granting subsidies to solar panel implementation, but with a finite termination of that support, and well ahead of schedule by way of reducing those subsidies years ahead of time.

How long have we been supporting oil, again?

A quite sanguine outlook for some, I must say.

While we're at it, BP has bought up about 80% of all domestic solar panel companies, "Ode to Joy" inherent in all the R&D obtaining there! The tax accountants went on a deduction shopping spree, the one or two upper level dock workers were promoted to heads of research, solar panel office, the single-wide trailer out on the far side of the the field.











< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/29/2011 12:32:47 AM >

(in reply to shallowdeep)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/28/2011 11:53:07 PM   
shallowdeep


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From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

AC will kill you if you are held against the live connection, assuming enough voltage and amps. But as I said the AC will tnd to cause your muscles to both contract and relaxand therefore tend to knock your hand off if you make an accidental contact. DC can cause your muscles to contract and make you grip hold of whatever is shocking you.

AC can do the same paralysis thing. It depends on the frequency, but the "let-go" threshold current for 60 Hz is actually somewhat lower than that for DC; your nerves and muscles can't actually respond to on/off 60 times a second. Additionally, the effects of 60 Hz AC, for a given current, tend to be a bit more disruptive to human physiology. It's probably kind of moot at the voltages involved, though - they can both be dangerous.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/29/2011 12:09:30 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

We've been through this I think RealO, the main reason is because the electric motor's torque range extends to zero RPM. Get the right gears in the tranny and it will go like hell. But there are also disadvantages.

But you have not addressed whether the motor in your favortite coupe there has magnets or not. Permanent magnets do lose their magnetism over time. If the motor has electromagnets for both rotor and stator, this will not happen.

T^T


I missed this and did not know that anyone wanted me to address anything.

Usually people prefer I go away and stop disrupting their fantasy world.  LOL

No never not ever use pm motors in a car. Not that someone wont and claim its better its not.  You nailed with the field style designs that can be switched to maximize everything on the fly, for torque, horsepower and efficiency, but not so much efficiency, but substantially reduced back emf over pm.

If it were on my list of toys to build I would build one specifically to be driven by high power gate arrays and I do believe that you can capture a good deal of the energy back and that is impossible with a pm motor.

if you wanna see some really kool shit look up bob teal, he made a solenoid motor with some really interesting electrical properties that I have not bothered to investigate but sounds right.  One look at this guy and you will bust out laughing, its like no fuckign way, but he really did build a kool invention.

you did nail it on the motor

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/29/2011 12:12:19 AM >


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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/29/2011 12:32:53 AM   
Termyn8or


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"As for audio, not sure where you are coming from here. Whether tube/valve or solid state, the upper-echelon power amplifiers and preamps' cost is most directly related to ability of the power supply to provide clean as possible DC (and lots of current) to the relevant circuits, the emitter, the filaments, etc."

Let's get in sorts here. For many applications a rock solid flat line absolute constant voltage is desired, but not for audio. the nature of the audio waveform to be reproduced varying in level very significantly makes it more desirable to have peak instantaneous currents stored in capacitors for use during transient peaks suck as the hit of the bass drum and so forth, which then depletes the "rails" which are the DC supply for the output stage. It also dpends on what you listen to, but that semisoft power supply gives an amp what's called dynamic headroom. That is the ability to produce, for a split second, double or more it's steady state output rating. You get to appreciate that without knowing it sometimes. But that's why they don't use a switched mode tightly regulated power supply in most amps. Also, those transformers do not like anything but sine waves so you better forget those cheapo $200 invertors.

The emitter is an element of a transistor (BJT) which has no filament. A filament exists in a vacuum tube. It heats the cathode which is the functional equivalent. However the same applies about the peak power available for transients, except in the case of true class A amps, whether solid state or not. They are quite rare. There are quasi class A amps which are almost as good, but not quite.

But the point is you can look at almost any thing in your house and take it apart, and find a power supply that gives it 5VDC, 12 VDC, 32VDC. -5VDC, -12VDC. -32 VDC and all that. Everything almost runs an DC, with VERY few exceptions. I have a power drill that is one. It's a VSR but it's a powerful MF.

Most VSRs have a chopper controlled by the trigger that works up in the Khz range, which requires a recitfier and filter. Not this one. It's like an 7 amp motor and it does 2,500 RPM. It will break your wrist off. I have had more powerful drills, but never one that did that much RPM in a handheld with that much torque. Well sometimes it starts a bit jerky, because it chops the power at 60 Hz, not at a fast rate. So if you pull the trigger when the AC is at it's crest, it sorta jerks. But pulling that power in that small package they simply didn't have room for an adequate circuit that would do it more smoothly. They used a four quadrant triac. Cheaper too.

I am happy with the thing though, this motherfucker will drill. It takes both hands to hold it if using a paddle bit. With a sharp paddle bit I can cut a two inch hole in a four by four in about 7 seconds. It is that bad to the bone. I don't even use it all the time. Best hundred bucks I spent in a long time.

But the point is, if the power was DC, they could have put the high speed controller in. If fed by DC now, it would be at full speed with the lightest touch on the trigger because of how a triac works.

And triacs don't lend themselves to inverter applications well, you are talking bipolar or FET. More money per watt handled, and drive circuitry.

T^T

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: Cost and simplicity of solar panels continues to fall. - 9/29/2011 12:55:04 AM   
Edwynn


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In my past life, I was an audio engineer, and nearly 98% of all large venue live sound reinforcement ran on switched-mode amplifiers at that time.

It is true that most home audio amplifiers would not be happy seeing DC into the power transformer, possibly for the same reason that no appliance of any sort would be happy seeing DC on the primary for any input designed to accept AC only, even if then put through the laborious process of conversion to the required DC for the remaining circuit.  Let us grapple with that one for awhile.

In any case, I did make a clear distinction between the emitter of a transistor and the filaments of a tube/valve, for those up to snuff on the distinction and the difference there. Sorry if that was missed.


< Message edited by Edwynn -- 9/29/2011 1:15:33 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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