The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:04:35 PM)

The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains
Jacob Sullum | September 26, 2011

James Miller, a theater professor at the University of Wisconsin in Stout, is a fan of Firefly ... [he] put a Firefly poster on his office door ... [which] shows Nathan Fillion as Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds, captain of the spaceship at the center of Firefly.

Superimposed over the image of Reynolds is a line he utters in the first episode: "You don't know me, son, so let me explain this to you once: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed." (This is Reynolds' response to a question from a prospective passenger: "I'm trying to put this as delicately as I can...how do I know you won't kill me in my sleep?")


[image]http://reason.com/assets/mc/jsullum/2011_09/firefly-poster.JPG[/image]

The campus police took it down, claiming it was ... "a threat by others and/or could cause those that view it to believe that you are willing/able to carry out actions similar to what is listed. This posting can cause others to fear for their safety, thus it was removed."

So, then he put up this poster:

[image]http://reason.com/assets/mc/jsullum/2011_09/fascism-warning.JPG[/image]

Guess what? [8D][:)]

Is Professor Miller's 1st amendment rights being abridged?

Firm




Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:09:40 PM)

fascists got the hump?
someone has too much time on their hands,or didnt get laid lately or....
dont have a sense of humour.




SternSkipper -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:29:06 PM)

quote:


Guess what?

Is Professor Miller's 1st amendment rights being abridged?

Firm


hard to say. What I would need to know before even wasting a guess would be a)Are the insides of the University Facilities themselves considered public property or has the University incorporated in such a way that they can dictate substantially what goes on inside those premises. And b)what's the professor's contract for employment say regarding communication practices (if anything)...
   One would really need that to know for sure ... particularly with the vague language regarding the school's purported right to control free speech





SternSkipper -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:31:13 PM)

quote:

fascists got the hump?
someone has too much time on their hands,or didnt get laid lately or....
dont have a sense of humour.


I liked the professor's response ... that's for sure





Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:33:20 PM)

maybe f it had been inside his office?
i realise it lessens the impact, but im only guessing at the rules they have...




servantforuse -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:35:53 PM)

The P C police will take a poster down, but it's ok when radical liberals run wild in the State Capital building for nearly three months.




Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:47:45 PM)

yeah the Bastards!!!!!!!
WTF????




Owner59 -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:50:14 PM)

For three months even......[8|]




Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:52:39 PM)

send that campus cop to deal with em!! that will sort em out!

sorry Firm, I didnt start it:)




SternSkipper -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:57:22 PM)

quote:

maybe f it had been inside his office?
i realise it lessens the impact, but im only guessing at the rules they have...


Clearly, they could not witghstand the Sheer Awesomness of your pretty ass Luce




Aylee -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 5:59:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Is Professor Miller's 1st amendment rights being abridged?

Firm


F*ing Alliance always trying to annihilate the Browncoats!


There does seem to be a clear and present lack of common sense in the taking down of these posters. *sigh*




Iamsemisweet -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:01:48 PM)

Hmm.  I think probably not unconstitutional.  Stupid, yes, unconstitutional, no.  Simply because, on the job, employers do have a right to control speech, at least non political speech ,and sometimes even that.

Did the campus police decide to take it down of their own volition, or was there some administrator or something who made the decision?  Just wondering.





Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:02:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

maybe f it had been inside his office?
i realise it lessens the impact, but im only guessing at the rules they have...


Clearly, they could not witghstand the Sheer Awesomness of your pretty ass Luce

I was gonna make a joke about my hubby not being pretty, but... he is kinda cute in a bearded dood kinda way:)




Aylee -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:16:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Hmm.  I think probably not unconstitutional.  Stupid, yes, unconstitutional, no.  Simply because, on the job, employers do have a right to control speech, at least non political speech ,and sometimes even that.

Did the campus police decide to take it down of their own volition, or was there some administrator or something who made the decision?  Just wondering.




It is not private property, it is public property.

And free-speech on a public college campus is typically encouraged. Right in the diversity handbook. [8|]

This is so NOT SHINY!




Iamsemisweet -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:18:21 PM)

I don't know, Aylee.  When I worked for the feds, they definitely had rules for what you could and could not do and say at work.  When he is in his office, he is representing the University as an employee.   I still think it was an overreaction, but not unconstitutional, unless you know of some case law or something that says otherwise.

Change it around a little bit.  What if it was a blatantly racist poster?  Still NOT SHINY?

Not sure how current this is, but:  .

While the First Amendment protects freedom of expression, American courts have long agreed that free speech is not absolute. Defamatory statements are a form of expression, but the law prohibits them. The same can be said about obscenity.
Speech may be subject to other limitations based on the setting. Many forms of expression that enjoy constitutional protection in one context may not be so protected in another.
The most prominent example of such a limitation is the law regarding speech in the public workplace. The First Amendment has been interpreted to hold that governmental entities may not take official actions abridging freedom of expression.
Accordingly, federal and state courts have ruled that public postsecondary schools may not fire or otherwise discipline employees for their lawful exercise of First Amendment privileges. The right to speak one's mind on the job, however, is subject to certain restrictions.
Two landmark US Supreme Court cases guide public employers on what is protected speech for their employees, and what sort of speech might serve as a legal basis for employment discipline.
Under Pickering v. Board of Education, a public employer wishing to discipline an employee over statements the employee has made in the workplace must "balance the employee's interest, as a citizen, in commenting on matters of public concern against the interest of the State, as an employer, in promoting the efficiency of the public service it performs through its employees."
In 1983, 15 years after the Pickering decision, the Supreme Court clarified what might constitute "matters of public concern" in Connick v. Myers. In reviewing the dismissal of a federal prosecuting attorney for circulating internal memoranda critical of her superiors, the court, through Justice White, noted that whether an employee's statement is a "matter of public concern must be determined by the content, form, and context of a given statement . . . .
"When employee expression cannot be fairly considered as relating to any matter of political, social, or other concern to the community, government officials should enjoy wide latitude in managing their offices, without intrusive oversight by the judiciary in the name of the First Amendment."
Two recent cases out of the US Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit shed some light on how these rules might be applied in a college or university setting.
Following years of repeated challenges against policies at Eastern Wyoming College by a longtime professor, the school suspended the professor without pay. The professor had criticized, among other things, the college's reduction in force procedures, and claimed that the college's president had held himself out as a "doctor" when he in fact did not possess a doctoral degree.
When the professor sued the college over her suspension, the court held tthat these issues were indeed matters of public concern and could not lawfully be the bases of employment discipline. Concerning her attack against the RIF procedures, the court valued the professor's "well-informed perspective on expenditures of public funds."
On the president's misrepresentation of his credentials, the court opined that the integrity of a college president could "obviously impact the social and political life of the community."
By contrast, the same court upheld the denial of a tenure application at New Mexico Highlands University over charges the professor had leveled against that institution. The professor had openly criticized a University regent over failing to comply with policy in selecting a new president, as well as a proposed academic reorganization.
The court rejected the claim that these subjects were matters of public concern. Rather, the court characterized the professor's statements as challenges to the school's internal structure and governance, and held that "matters of this nature rarely transcend the internal workings of the university to affect the political or social life of the community."
No doubt each case of employment discipline over what the employee says in the workplace is unique. In determining whether discipline is appropriate, however, a public employer would be well advised to consider the employee's offending language in light of the Pickering and Connick holdings.




Aylee -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:27:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I don't know, Aylee.  When I worked for the feds, they definitely had rules for what you could and could not do.  When he is in his office, he is representing the University as an employee.  

Change it around a little bit.  What if it was a blatantly racist poster?  Still NOT SHINY?



But it is NOT a racist poster. Making an argument about a different poster does not apply to THIS poster.

They are saying that THIS poster is threatening.

In Virginia v. Black in 2003, the Supreme Court defined true threats as only "those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals."

So what. . . someone is going to think: HEY! This professor is going to sneak into my room, wake me up, roll me over on my back, hand me a gun, and THEN shoot me!





Iamsemisweet -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:30:52 PM)

Like I said, I didn't think the decision was smart or justified,  it obviously wasn't.  The question was whether it was unconstitutional.  You had originally said the following:

It is not private property, it is public property.

And free-speech on a public college campus is typically encouraged. Right in the diversity handbook.


So how far do YOU think freedom of speech goes on a public college campus?  Racist posters, for example?

Virginia v. Black had nothing to do with restrictions on speech in an employment setting. 




SternSkipper -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:30:59 PM)

quote:

he is kinda cute in a bearded dood kinda way:)


As am I[:D]




Lucylastic -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:32:26 PM)

the campus ripper upper probably got pissed at being labelled a fascist...




Aylee -> RE: The Clear and Present Danger Posed by Space Captains (9/26/2011 6:43:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Like I said, I didn't think the decision was smart or justified,  it obviously wasn't.  The question was whether it was unconstitutional.  You had originally said the following:

It is not private property, it is public property.

And free-speech on a public college campus is typically encouraged. Right in the diversity handbook.


So how far do YOU think freedom of speech goes on a public college campus?  Racist posters, for example?



Again, comparing the circumstances of THIS poster with a racist poster is a false comparison and argument.

As far as the racist poster goes, it would depend on who put it up and why.

How far should free speech on a public campus go? Until someone shouts "FIRE" in a theater. Or, to quote Justice Marshall, "I'll know it when I see it."




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