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RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:33:07 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Interesting. Note, Obama talked about Ghaddafi needing to step down because he had lost his legitimacy to govern.

In that case, Congress would be the first to go.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 21

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 8:41:55 AM

StrangerThan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Interesting. Note, Obama talked about Ghaddafi needing to step down because he had lost his legitimacy to govern.

In that case, Congress would be the first to go.

ok. I'll let you choose the numerical order.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 22

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 9:33:50 AM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
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Bush wasn't considered legitimate by many Democrats in 2000 because Gore had won more popular votes but ultimately lost the electoral college--I'm not even going to get into FL and the SC issues here--democrats forgot that the electoral college is really all that matters. Likewise, Obama isn't considered legitimate because...well he's a Democrat and Republicans tend to attempt to de-legitimize Democratic presidents. They did so to Clinton and Carter and even to a certain extent to JFK. In the case of Obama, his legitimacy is brought into questions with "birtherism", claims that he's a Muslim and a host of other insidious red herrings.

As for the houses of congress...well, our representative earn nearly $200K a year and what do they do? How has their work improved the country, or the lives of our citizens? They are in session for three, then have a week off and my representative hasn't had a single town hall meeting in this city-the biggest city in his district. He takes that week off, after working for 3 and relaxes with his family. The Senate is little better. McConnell had stated that his number one priority is to make Obama a one-term president. His priority, and thus that of his caucus, is not jobs or the economy, or finding an end to the "war of terror", but to increase the power of Republicans in any way the can. If a Democrat had said that about a Republican president, I'd have said he was bordering on treason--if I were to say about McConnell, the republicans on this board would want to crucify me.

The money needs to eliminated from politics. Campaigns, all national campaigns, need to be federally funded. State and local contests need to be funded at the state and local level ONLY. If you don't live in a district, you shouldn't be allowed to donate to a candidate. This would shut down the revolving door between government work and lobbying because it would shut down the lobbying with money game we have going. It wouldn't stop lobbying nor should it. But it would even the playing field for those of us who wish to lobby but don't have the millions available to do so effectively.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 23

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 9:43:35 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Interesting. Note, Obama talked about Ghaddafi needing to step down because he had lost his legitimacy to govern.

In that case, Congress would be the first to go.

ok. I'll let you choose the numerical order.

With their approval rating? lol.

Just toss open the doors and fire em all

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 24

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 9:45:16 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Interesting. Note, Obama talked about Ghaddafi needing to step down because he had lost his legitimacy to govern.

In that case, Congress would be the first to go.

ok. I'll let you choose the numerical order.

With their approval rating? lol.

Just toss open the doors and fire em all

Well hell, seems like we can agree on something.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 25

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 9:47:01 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

lol.. dont get scared

It does make me wonder why their rating is always so much lower than the WH. But its easier, I guess, to blame many when it contains both sides of the isle.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 26

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 10:36:29 AM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

That it should be primarily based on the will of the "People", and not due to the "divine right of kings", the "law of the jungle - might makes right", or due to the birth, wealth and education of an oligarchic group.
Fewer voters than ever feel the federal government has the consent of the governed.

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that just 17% of Likely U.S. Voters think the federal government today has the consent of the governed.

Or is it something deeper, structural with the current US government?

Firm

Do you think the People are you and I?

The AOC brought forward, and I proved on several occasions that it IS still in force, hell that is obvious since the united states was created under the AOC and could not exist if the AOC was not in force!

Art 8 I believe states the legislatures are to vote on all taxation, and that is NOT you or I.

In fact its even in most states constitutions.

They simply replaced the king as STATE with the STATE as king!

Well unless your state is NOT "sovereign"? Pretty straight forward stuff really.

It is the law of the jungle step out of line and you end up like 3 of the kennedy's, lincoln, foster, oneil.

The 1800's baltimore case where the supreme court stated that a STATE CAN CLAIM YOU AS "THEIR" CITIZEN WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT and force you at the end of a barrel of a gun to join their club regardless of how you feel about it!

Of course you can always protest it by going to the gubafia MOB court to get a good dose of JUST-US to remind of you that you are one of the people NOT the "People" forcing you BACK in to your proper STAT'e-US and position "UNDER" the king, I mean State, insuring that you wind up broke or in jail in the process.

That and federal smederal, the state is no different! The county is no different! and the cities are NO different. One big happy deMOBcracy.

The principles of the declaration of independence have been overruled by the the just-us club aka court.

All these advertised rights are merely a false presumption that they apply to you and they do sorta.

(at least "civilly", (as in alenable, NOT unalienable rights") in other words with permission of the deMOBcracy) your owners.

But thats ok! You get to choose your new corporate TRUSTEES AND ADMINISTRATORS (well if the elections arent rigged and most are), for the owners every few years so it will change soon!

Who was it said the definition of insanity was doing the same thing expecting a different result?

Oh yeh! Vote the bums out! Put new ones in! Thatll fix it!

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/27/2011 10:54:51 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 27

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 11:08:50 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I personally dont think those two charts correspond at all.

Hard to say if they do or dont. The scales are so different that no conclusion is possible.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 28

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 11:10:19 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

for a math wiz like you (as innumerate as you are) it should be childs play to find their lowest common denominator and normalize them one to another.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 29

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 11:15:15 AM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Do you really think anyone pays any attention to what you write, other than to make fun of you?

I've given you advice on how to be more effective. Until you show any interest in doing so, you simply make a laughing stock out of any point you may have.

Peace. Out.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 30

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 1:20:20 PM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

With their approval rating? lol.

Just toss open the doors and SET fire TO em all

I fixed it for ya.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 31

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 3:01:08 PM

Masta808

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"Government of the people, by the people, and for the people" is a stupid saying by Abraham Lincoln who is NOT a founding father of this country. But it doesnt matter anyways because corporations are people too, more people in some ways and less people in other.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 32

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 3:45:51 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masta808

"Government of the people, by the people, and for the people" is a stupid saying by Abraham Lincoln who is NOT a founding father of this country.

So what that he wasn't a "Founding Father" in the 1776 revolution? He was certainly the mid-wife of the current strong federal system, don't you think?

And, I chose the title specifically to invoke one of the possibilities that the systemic loss of governmental legitimacy brings to mind: civil war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masta808

But it doesnt matter anyways because corporations are people too, more people in some ways and less people in other.

A corporation is a legal fiction to allow more efficient commerce. A corporation does not have a direct vote at the ballot box, nor does the existence of corporations deny the social contract that a society of individuals enter into in order to legitimize a government.

You can make the argument that corporations have a deleterious effect on that social contract, but you'll have to actually think it through and present something of substance, rather than a talking point.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Masta808)

Post #: 33

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 6:42:57 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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Good post Firm. I suggest that people just talk to other people, not about political figures or parties, but ask them they question if they believe the country has gotten better or worse in the last 3 decades. Ask them if they feel that the government actually represents them and the things that effect their everyday lives. Leave the Bush's, Obama's and Clinton's out of it, pull back the wrapping and look hard.

I cannot find the article now, but eith the exception of the military, disasters, and foreign relation issues, we have enough policies and laws for the country to run on auto pilot. So ask yourself what are the politicians really doing? What drives them to do what they do? Is the power they have the goal they wish to achieve?

No I do not feel the Federal government does the will of the people in most instances, but the will of the people still casts their ballots in the same directions every time, right towards the corporatist.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 34

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/27/2011 10:29:44 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Do you really think anyone pays any attention to what you write, other than to make fun of you?

I've given you advice on how to be more effective. Until you show any interest in doing so, you simply make a laughing stock out of any point you may have.

Peace. Out.

Firm

you dont need to veil an insult then tell me to peace out.

your post speaks far more about you than it does about me.

When I am in a crowd of legal/history majors they ears are WIDE open. Would you like to hang out and see sometime?

I imagine it would disappoint you to hear they are starting in some of the better colleges to teach the stuff I talk about.

I cant imagine what possible good it serves you and others of the same ilk to take that stand.

Having a "working" understanding of the things I talk about set the stage for real change.

How many times over the years have I complained that the judges are completely corrupt? Maybe if you had listened then it would save these kinds of things form your children having to deal with it.

quote:

Judicial Racketeering Prompts Call For RICO ACT Prosecutions
Internet Exclusive Video News Blog: 7:45 min
Release Date: August 29, 2011

Los Angeles, CA Former U. S. Prosecutor Richard I. Fine, Ph.D. appears in this exclusive video report where he outlines the criminal activity where members of the California Judiciary, are involved. He says this activity qualifies as "organized crime" and explains why their activities should qualify for prosecution under the RICO ACT ( Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act). Read Transcript Here

Then again repulsiCANTS and deMOBcraps are alwaays too busy wiht their own leftee rightee agenda to pay attention what is good for the nation as a whole.

You know cant see the forest because all those damn trees are in the way.

carry on.....

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/27/2011 10:33:26 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 35

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/28/2011 1:29:19 AM

Masta808

Posts: 591
Joined: 1/6/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masta808

"Government of the people, by the people, and for the people" is a stupid saying by Abraham Lincoln who is NOT a founding father of this country.

So what that he wasn't a "Founding Father" in the 1776 revolution? He was certainly the mid-wife of the current strong federal system, don't you think?

And, I chose the title specifically to invoke one of the possibilities that the systemic loss of governmental legitimacy brings to mind: civil war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masta808

But it doesnt matter anyways because corporations are people too, more people in some ways and less people in other.

A corporation is a legal fiction to allow more efficient commerce. A corporation does not have a direct vote at the ballot box, nor does the existence of corporations deny the social contract that a society of individuals enter into in order to legitimize a government.

You can make the argument that corporations have a deleterious effect on that social contract, but you'll have to actually think it through and present something of substance, rather than a talking point.

Firm

We the Tea Party want to return the government back to days of our Fore Fathers, that means we dont believe in Abraham Lincoln and his freeing of the slaves. We want the government of the olden days before Abraham Lincoln back when this country started anew. All this "development" has made America lose its way, where Democracy was for the rich Americans.

Corporations should be treated as people. They can threaten and fire people and then some for not voting republican. Which I fully agree with. With all the liberal companies and liberal media we better be able to hold their jobs and families lives for ransom. Then can donate massive amounts of money to Super PACs to fund their agenda aka buying the election process because America is Capitalist. But the best part about having a corporation no one goes to prison. Only Bernie Maddoff went to prison because he was stupid enough not to hide behind a corporation and instead was the front man for his company. Why because you cant put corporations in prison but you can use them to buy an election.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 36

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/28/2011 6:50:27 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline

Houa! Houa! Houa!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Masta808)

Post #: 37

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/28/2011 7:06:21 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Ashes, ashes, all fall down."

Do you happen to know where that line is from originally ?

T^T

(in reply to SternSkipper)

Post #: 38

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/28/2011 7:21:21 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"sorta corresponds to this chart. "

Not if you look closely. It appears to until you look at the vertical lines denoting the years. One is on a seven year scale and the other is on a three year scale.

It does mean something, and I think we know what that is, but they do not "correspond".

ETA : You fuckers just made me agree with Willbe again. That's the third or fourth time this mnth. How much of this can I take ?

ETA again : The government is of, for and by the people. It's just that we aren't the people.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 9/28/2011 7:40:58 PM >

(in reply to EternalHoH)

Post #: 39

RE: Of the People, By the People, For the People ...? - 9/28/2011 9:35:00 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

FR:

New poll that tracks with the same thing. This one with a little more historical context for tazzy

:

CNN Poll: Trust in government at all time low
September 28th, 2011

Washington (CNN) - The public's trust in the federal government has dropped to an all-time low, according to a new national survey.

A CNN/ORC International Poll released Wednesday morning indicates that only 15 percent of Americans say they trust the government in Washington to do what's right just about always or most of the time. Last September that figure was at 25 percent. Seventy-seven percent of people questioned say they trust the federal government only some of the time, and an additional eight percent volunteer that they never trust the government to do what's right.

In the past five years the number who say they trust the government "always" or "most of the time" was usually in the low-to-mid 20's. Before the recession hit that number was usually in the low-to-mid 30's, and slightly more than a decade ago, it was in the high 30's or occasionally just over 40 percent.

"The previous all-time low was 17 percent, set in the summer of 1994," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland. "Before the Watergate scandal, a majority of Americans said they trusted the government always or most of the time, but since 1974 that has happened only during a brief period in 2001 immediately after the 9/11 terrorism attacks."

...

The poll indicates a partisan divide when it comes to trust.

"Not surprisingly, Democrats are more likely to trust the federal government than Republicans, but even among Democrats, more than two-thirds say they rarely trust the government," adds Holland.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 40

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