quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



It was answered to the intelligent audience to begin with.


Embarrass yourself further if you like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The same debate about the 'legitimacy of government' is happening here. From what I can tell, there's a similar sense of disenchantment with Govt in the UK - perhaps some UK poster might enlighten us. So I'm not sure that you guys ought to assume that it's a purely US phenomenon, or that the causes are to be found in purely US factors or politics.

While increasingly vitriolic and divisive politics may have a role in this phenomenon, my suspicion is that at least some of this alienation is sourced in the rapidity of change in today's world. Change happens at a far faster rate than any time in the past. People everywhere seem less equipped to manage that change than ever before. They feel unable to influence the changes in their lives. The traditional protections and securities have all evaporated. And people are told that there is nothing to replace them.

There is a sense that people feel they're no longer in control their lives. The increased power of corporations over peoples' lives, neo-liberal economics, globalisation all play into this. There's a feeling that these changes are not for the good of ordinary people, that change benefits a few and bypasses the many (quite justified IMHO). People tend to blame governments for all this - they feel let down and betrayed by governments that have failed to protect their standard of living. Nor do people see solutions anywhere on the horizon.

I'm not suggesting that this is the only cause, or that there aren't local factors that play into this phenomenon. But I can't help feeling that reactions against the pace and impersonal nature of change, against new insecurities and fears all get articulated, they find expression as an increasing disenchantment with governments and politics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

People are scared.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



It was answered to the intelligent audience to begin with.


Embarrass yourself further if you like.

Sorry toots, not the least bit embarrassed. You admitted you didnt answer the question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

there is another approach that resonates much better.

people now have access to what one had to travel to washington to get.

In other words there are literally shit loads of people involved and one person goes to the national archives, scans and it all goes viral.

Everything that the gubafia could keep hidden before is now in a matter of seconds world wide information.

that is what is causing this phenomena.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

People are scared.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

People are scared.

People are scared and some of them seriously don't like each other. You and Firm talked about deeper structural change. At this point in history, I don't see how we could have a deeper structural change that achieved a stronger union or a stronger voice for the people. I can definitely see the vision for it making headway. It's the details where the idea gets messy.

I'm not sure the US as we know it would survive a deep, structural change in government.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Depends on what front that "war" is waged.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Depends on what front that "war" is waged.

Actually Taz, I think the war is being waged now. We have two definitive sides that are ideologically sitting at opposite ends of the political spectrum. People are tagged all the time as being left or right, when in reality, a good many folks sit within a few degrees of center on most issues. These aren't the people who make the most noise though, nor grab the attention, nor push for new legislation. They may get fired up over a given topic, but as a whole, not so much.

The further you venture out along political lines however, the more the whole becomes important rather than a given subject. When you look at court cases that grab the media's attention, what you see often is something driven by the extreme end of one side or another. When you look at elections, there is an undeniable drive from both sides to seed the Supreme Court. When you look at social issues, you see polar opposites establishing stances from which they do not want to either compromise or deviate.

The war is being waged, in the courts and at the ballot box. The issue is, if we have a structural change, a deep one, what it will expose are two sides who cannot stand each other, sides that are held in check somewhat by the structure we currently have, sides that if brought to the table to figure out the next step will have more acrimony for each other than they have either compassion or desire to compromise.

I don't know how we could affect such a change without laying open deep differences, and deep animosities. Personally I think some type of conflict is coming. I don't think we'll divide up into sides and start shooting each other. I do think demonstrations, social unrest, and some violence are on tap if the government does not get it's shit together. Too, the government is a reflection of the people in that we elect who we elect. So many people feel disenfranchised by the whole election cycle anyway, if not for the outside influences, then by the fact they live in a district where their vote doesn't matter anyway.

Dunno.

But as far as figuring it as some future war, I don't think we have to wait. I think it's here now. It's just not being fought with guns and bullets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

there is another approach that resonates much better.

people now have access to what one had to travel to washington to get.

In other words there are literally shit loads of people involved and one person goes to the national archives, scans and it all goes viral.

Everything that the gubafia could keep hidden before is now in a matter of seconds world wide information.

that is what is causing this phenomena.

You ARE kidding here, right?

A nation with a sufficiently large populace that tunes into Dancing With The Stars, Simon Cowell and Kellie Pickler, whatever show that was, "America Has Talent" (for imbecility, no doubt), the media making every effort to turn any utterance from a simple athlete into the largest drama imaginable, and politicians claiming to know anything more than squat about economics but knowingly, and I mean KNOWINGLY! making a complete arse of themselves at every opportunity, and then proud of it!

But that is the manure pile that people shove each other out of the way to dive into. And these people, these people, are one and the same as are diving into the national archives and chasing congressional records, right?


Right.

quote:

The Matrix is the world that has been pulled over your eyes, to blind you from the truth.

Neo : What truth?

Morpheus : That you are a slave, Neo.

Like everyone else, you were born into bondage, born into a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch.

A prison...for your mind....

Unfortunatly, no one can be..._told_ what the Matrix is...

you have to see it for yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Firm...Our government is as legitimate as ever...the rest is gobbledygook.

Unlike us… people just live their lives and mostly could care little about the happenings in Washington. This apathy makes our elected officials believe that THEY are the true molders and leaders of our society…not the people.

Then…. when goings on in Washington start affecting the lives of the average citizen politicians are set straight… They either bend to the will of the people or they are voted out.

This has happened over and over in our history…we are a continuing revolution that ebbs and flows with time and will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Obama didn't exactly throw Elizabeth Warren under the bus, he merely looked the other way when congress shackled her to the pavement in a spot marked "Buses Only," whereupon the Republicans rented an armada of buses.

Close call on actually doing anything for benefit of citizens, there. Sometimes those 'gestures' can be too close for comfort.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Bush could not get elected in any honest fashion, but there he was anyway. The majority of Americans were avidly against invasion of Iraq, but there we were anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Obama just keeps on appointing the same agro-chem and banker folks to highest level administrative positions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

We've been at this "lack of consent of the governed" thing for quite awhile now. I might have found the issue that some people only recently woke up to this fact to be 'disturbing' in times past. But that was before I myself realized that I had been expecting far too much for far too long.