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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 5:04:33 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, ok, but...this is grappling with cavils and making mountains of them in my estimation.

The absolute velocity of the solar system is not
known with certainty. On the contrary, the experiment
reported in this paper could be used to obtain its value
[36]. Table 3 presents the values of solar velocity
used by Michelson in the design of his experiments
in 1881 and 1887 (items 1 and 2). Items 3 and 4are
the two values derived by Miller from his observations
in the 1920’s. Item5 is the solar velocity obtained by
Marinov in the late 1970’s in an experiment with two
rotating coupled interferometers [48]. Finally, item 6
is the velocity of earth relative to background radiation,
obtained by means other than interferometric
experiments [49].
For two of the scenarios above, figure 3 presents the
variation of terrestrial motion in Cleveland, Ohio (Á
=81±¡390W, ¸=41±¡300N) during 8 July 1887,which
was the first day of theMMexperiment. It may be seen
that at the time of the experiment (noon and 6 p.m.)
the speed towards the east was much larger than the
30 km/s incorrectly expected by MM, and the speed
towards the north was not zero as incorrectly expected
by MM. On the contrary, both component of velocity
are in general much larger than 30 km/s. These two
facts immediately imply that the MM experiment was
incorrectly designed. This is a novel and deep failure
in the MM experiment, that we recently recognized...

So, we don't know our exact velocity in the universe, we don't know exactly what side of the spinning iron core of the earth is under us... and so on.

We treat many things as digital when in fact they are analog (or maybe it is vice versa) and 5-10 (cuz they came up with 8-10 and MM came up with 5-7) mps error in results as a ratio to the speed of light.........dunno. Seems pretty small, especially when if there was an aether it would require at least 30mps difference and that is the number they were looking for.

It does not convince me that light speed is variable (save the ways we know it is by gravity, passing thru objects and whatnot) in some independent way.

It certainly does not argue for an aether, since that would be massive enough if that as a carrier that we would find it long before a quark.


I do not see it as significant, rather a tempest in a teapot. There is no discrepancy here that could not be hunted down and accounted for if there was some earthshaking question here, I believe nearly all the guys are content that it is within standard and requires no accounting.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 5:20:19 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

It does not convince me that light speed is variable (save the ways we know it is by gravity, passing thru objects and whatnot) in some independent way.

You may be mistaking my purpose here. I'm not arguing that the speed of light is variable. I'm just noting that the fringes exist, except in church doctrine, and that efforts to explain them continue to be undertaken by non-priests.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 5:54:32 AM >

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 8:29:14 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		everything is uncertain at the fringes, we've never been there before and have no idea what it means, cuz it aint at all how we imagined it. So there is some warble in the waft and woof before we figure out what the fuck is going on.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 8:49:33 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

everything is uncertain at the fringes...

Okay, okay, I meant fringe shifts. So sue me.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 8:53:56 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		stet. same idea. and I know what you meant.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:02:16 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Published in a cold fusion magazine and written by a guy who rejects all of modern physics for his own pet theory. Will you really believe anything?

Always the source, never the content. Right on track there, DK. Have a Bible.

K.


Did you fucking read the article? Do you even pretend to understand what the author is claiming? Do you fail to understand that fringe shifts of the magnitude detected by M&M and later experiments is several orders of magnitude to small to have anything do to with anything outside the experimental apparatus?

Simple fact any time you try and produce two or more exactly identical items you will fail. Also it is completely impossible to exactly match one distance to another. Combine those two facts and the anomoly would be not detecting a fringe shift in an interferometer experiment. That doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as aether and the speed of light is constant to the extreme edge of our ability to measure.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:15:34 AM   
FirstQuaker


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Status: offline 		As we noted before, if a photon has mass, quasi-mass or no mass is a question as it acts in several manners consistent with all these possibilities at least as far as we can see yet,, However an electron does have mass yet is capable of traveling at more or less light speed as it is pushed by other electrons through a conductor from atom to atom.

Since a black hole does not occur due to the infinite mass one electron should achieve (never mind the infinite energy it would take to push just one electron into and push its fellows through a conductor) when one does, it appears at the subatomic level the theory of relativity does not necessarily apply. (Perhaps they are small enough to misbehave while the universal traffic cops are looking the other way.)

And we have not even touched quantum physics yet.

There is way to much the humans don't know to make any absolute pronouncements yet on just how the 'verse works.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:21:21 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

As we noted before, if a photon has mass, quasi-mass or no mass is a question as it acts in several manners consistent with all these possibilities at least as far as we can see yet,, However an electron does have mass yet is capable of traveling at more or less light speed as it is pushed by other electrons through a conductor from atom to atom.

Actually current in a conductor definitely travels slower than c.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:32:14 AM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

As we noted before, if a photon has mass, quasi-mass or no mass is a question as it acts in several manners consistent with all these possibilities at least as far as we can see yet,, However an electron does have mass yet is capable of traveling at more or less light speed as it is pushed by other electrons through a conductor from atom to atom.

Actually current in a conductor definitely travels slower than c.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity


As I noted, more or less . . .

A lot is due to the inductance and capacitance of the conductor(s) too, and noone has discovered a way to negate these impedances..

However a conductor hasn't been noted to weigh any more when these electrons are in motion though it, and moving even a few trillionn electrons at ~90 percent of light speed should cause some measurable increase in mass. And  increasing the voltage doesn't speed them up, though it might put more of them into the conductor and out.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:32:25 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

That doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as aether...

You must have missed an encyclical.

There's no such thing as the old idea of a stationary luminiferous ether, true. But light does indeed propagate through a dynamic medium that fills all of space and constitutes "the essential structural material of the universe."

The Lightness of Being: Mass, Ether, and the Unification of Forces

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 10:09:58 AM >

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 9:36:32 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fringe_shift for anyone who is interested and no, nobody said it was zero as the author claims.

let me say it in calmer language, even though MM may have suffered grevious error in 1897 the subesequent inferometer tests (including this guys) in no case was there a substantial enough difference in the pattern (the interference measured bar to bar) that could not be accounted for with the trees moving or a butterfly passing by type of shit. Again when you are measuring beyond your capability (and we are) looking for about 1/100 percent the speed of light.

They found at most 25% of that or about 0.0025.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelson%E2%80%93Morley_experiment

or about 75 thousand meters per second difference. thru glass it travels about 90kmps slower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light

The wind of the earths turning should have exhibited a much greater effect, had there been this plum pudding aether.

We are not accurate to the what ken? 10000 light years in our measurements of the universe?

the accuracy of the measurements over time in such large a system as the earth is....well, to be expected, but they are gonna have to get some hellacious differences than they have to date, for anything 'different' to be occuring.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 11:14:37 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

That doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as aether...

You must have missed an encyclical.

There's no such thing as the old idea of a stationary luminiferous ether, true. But light does indeed propagate through a dynamic medium that fills all of space and constitutes "the essential structural material of the universe."

The Lightness of Being: Mass, Ether, and the Unification of Forces

K.

Did you watch the video or read the book? What he calls the 'grid' is a conceptual construct. He's talking about thinking of empty space as a medium ( see 21 minutes into the lecture.)

Are you just googling stuff and posting anything you think agrees with you without doing any research?

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 11:25:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Incidentally, he does talk about the quantum foam and that there isn't really any 'empty' space, as well. And of course space is a real construction. What he terma a grid is the cartesian coordinate system, and has been used many many times as a visual aid to understanding. Because it is pretty useful to subsect something as large as space to get a handle on it.

And he went thru some of the possible unifying theories, but nothing new there.




< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/30/2011 11:28:24 AM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 12:38:55 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Did you watch the video or read the book? What he calls the 'grid' is a conceptual construct. He's talking about thinking of empty space as a medium ( see 21 minutes into the lecture.)

Are you just googling stuff and posting anything you think agrees with you without doing any research?

More to the point, are you so fucked up that your mind can't process anything that doesn't agree with you?

He is not talking about just "thinking" of empty space as a medium, he is saying that (so-called) empty space is a medium. He shows a clip, stating "this is the deep structure of reality ... going on all the time and everywhere." Not to put too fine a point on it, he continues...

empty space is far from empty... constantly, in "apparently" empty space... every particle and it's anti-particle fluctuate to make this modern ether. Because ether got a bad reputation, and the nineteenth century models of it were impoverished and wrong, I want to use a different word for the modern concept of empty space as a medium, but the spirit of the ether lives on.

I hope that answers your questions. Thank you so much for asking.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 1:33:53 PM >

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 2:51:58 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Yeah he is talking about the quantum foam, the continual appearance and disappearance of pairs of virtual particles. Nothing whatever about a physical medium in which light moves which is what the ether was supposed to be. If you cannot understand the difference between a useful logical abstraction and a model of the physical universe perhaps you shouldn't be reading advanced physics.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 5:54:39 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nope, you are fuckin lost in this discussion Fats, you should bow out of it immediately. LOL.



Now why am I not surprised at that answer...

You are noting if not predictable

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 9/30/2011 8:06:41 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Yeah he is talking about the quantum foam, the continual appearance and disappearance of pairs of virtual particles. Nothing whatever about a physical medium in which light moves which is what the ether was supposed to be. If you cannot understand the difference between a useful logical abstraction and a model of the physical universe perhaps you shouldn't be reading advanced physics.

Either you're not getting what Wilczek is clearly saying, or you just don't want to. He's not talking about abstractions. He's saying that empty space is filled with "so-called" (his words) virtual particles that are real and physical. Individually their existence may be extremely brief, but at any given moment space is a medium seething with them.

When it comes to hard science, that's as hard as it gets.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/30/2011 9:00:44 PM >

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 10/1/2011 2:10:30 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

However a conductor hasn't been noted to weigh any more when these electrons are in motion though it, and moving even a few trillionn electrons at ~90 percent of light speed should cause some measurable increase in mass.

I remember reading something once in which the author stated (if I'm recalling correctly) that it isn't actually the particle's mass per se that increases, but rather its energy, which is stored in the form of a magnetic field. I don't know, but that would seem to connect here. Because when you have electrons moving at near light speed through a conductor, a magnetic field develops around it.

K.

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RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 10/1/2011 4:41:31 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Nope, you are fuckin lost in this discussion Fats, you should bow out of it immediately. LOL.



Now why am I not surprised at that answer...

You are noting if not predictable



I am indeed constantly noting, but your chagrin would have shown much brighter had you used the word nothing there.

Hey, I thought you made a joke, and I made a joke.

You are nothing if not grouchy, Fats.



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Breaking the ultimate speed limit - 10/1/2011 5:29:36 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

However a conductor hasn't been noted to weigh any more when these electrons are in motion though it, and moving even a few trillionn electrons at ~90 percent of light speed should cause some measurable increase in mass.

I remember reading something once in which the author stated (if I'm recalling correctly) that it isn't actually the particle's mass per se that increases, but rather its energy, which is stored in the form of a magnetic field. I don't know, but that would seem to connect here. Because when you have electrons moving at near light speed through a conductor, a magnetic field develops around it.

K.



No quanta is an island, it affects its neighbors.

And regarding the virtual particles, it has been known about for a long long time, and called the quantum foam.

BRICK: “Well, they say nature hates a vacuum, Big Daddy.”
BIG DADDY: “That’s what they say, but sometimes I think that a vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with.”
Tennessee Williams (1911-1983)
American playwright
Cat on a Hot Tin Roof (1955)



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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