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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 12:33:37 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.

Well said, my feelings exactly.

But you have to get rid of that creepy avatar.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/30/2011 12:35:40 AM >

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 12:44:01 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

empathy and compassion are not just from christianity.
As an agnostic, I have no desire for trampling over others beliefs, so I dont have much to add. I rarely do in religious topics. But wanted to add my agreement to the feelings writen by the others:)

If you have any empathy and compassion you will put up one of the ass pictures again.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 12:48:13 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs. I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own. I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives. I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves. So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die." (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff).

Imo, religion was invented to control people, before they were controlled by laws and coppers and judges to sentence you to jail time..

Yes, i do think there was good before religion, but who knows if there was more good than bad or vice versa..

I dont know why others strive to do the right thing, i know why i do tho.. I have this warped thing about fairness and treating people equally (as much as possible). It comes from being a little child and seeing how people behave toward someone they dont like. I rejected God when i was a kid cuz I didnt think God was fair or right. I was told that you needed to believe in God to go to heaven, if you didnt then heaven was closed to you (& it didnt matter that you were good and helped others, etc). Which also meant that you could be the nastiest criminal and do bad most of your life but if you found God and believed in him then you would be the one to go to heaven. So I didnt think that was fair or just, I also thought God was an egomanic cuz you had to believe in him to get into his little club,.. and I decided it was simply someplace i didnt want to be. So if Heaven and Hell do exist, guess i will be going to Hell. I am ok with that.

My parents, when i failed, told me i knew better than that, i could do better, etc, so they instilled being a good person and doing my best in me (religion had nothing to do with that). Of course that doesnt mean I am perfect or am always good, I am not a saint, and just as human as anyone else. Whatever i do tho, i am the one that has to look at that person in the mirror..

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 12:52:46 AM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.

So how is it that those who do not believe in God manage to be good people and have a good life?

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 9/30/2011 12:54:36 AM >

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 5:09:36 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.

Well said, my feelings exactly.

But you have to get rid of that creepy avatar.

But I like the joker cat...

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 5:53:10 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz

yes - no difference with or without
if really in need of guidance about what "good" should mean ... read Kant

On a fully unrelated matter... I wanted to post something intelligent and then I saw that girl on her knees showing me her rear. Now my thoughts are somewhere else. Kindly suggest so change the forum avatar to something which does not unbrain half of the participants. Thank you for your attention and sorry if I disturbed.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:34:48 AM

kalikshama

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I too found the avatar/words combo delightful.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:37:02 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.

So how is it that those who do not believe in God manage to be good people and have a good life?

I didn't mean to suggest that people can't be good without God (or gods) but rather that they can face greater challenges. Religion tends to enforce a strong ethical code. That code can often be harmful to some and it can also be oppressive generally but a society without any coherent system of ethics also faces very definite problems.

If individuals grow up within such a society that lacks a strong unifying religious component, it may well be harder for them to navigate between broad notions of right and wrong, although I know that is controversial as I'm sure some will insist they have no problem doing so. Some thinkers have talked about the problem of a society having no unifying values which could conceivably cause such a structure to break up during severe periods of stress. Some point to shared civil values but others see these ties as insufficient.

This was sort of what I was getting at when I meant to write in Post 13 (before a botched edit where a "not" got in the way): "The question as I see it (although admittedly slightly different to the OP) is whether religion generally speaking is better for the individual and for societies generally of which the individual is a member. Its not easy to answer but my own view is perhaps."

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:38:24 AM

Aneirin

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The term 'good' is subjective and open to interpretation, so I prefer the term 'moral' and with that I understand there are people in this world who do not believe in god who are moral, so if 'good 'is somewhere near moral, then I saw yes, God is unnecessary.

But one might say the teachings of god inspired morality, well, if it did, then good, but that is not to say belief in god is necessary for morality.

Maybe it is humanity is moving on from the belief in gods ?

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:40:34 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

How can you be agnostic even? You can BELIEVE a yugo can overtake an SUV therefore demonstrating devine intervention.

In the thread you are referencing I said that nobody gets overtaken by a Yugo. I don't think a Yugo could overtake anything except, maybe, a paraplegic turtle.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:44:37 AM

Marc2b

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quote:

But I like the joker cat...

Joker cat is a vast improvment over shitting Santa.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:49:44 AM

kalikshama

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I was raised Catholic. What sticks out in my mind is my grandmother telling me to be a "good citizen."

My yoga studies introduced me to the Yamas and Niyamas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamas

Every religion has a code of conduct, or series of "do's and don'ts", and the Yamas represent one of the "don't" lists within...Raja Yoga.

The yamas comprise the "shall-not" in our dealings with the external world as the Niyamas comprise the "shall-do" in our dealings with the inner world.

In Raja Yoga, observance of the abstinences, or yamas, help attain a healthy mind and body. As Hatha Yoga is the yoga for attaining control over the mortal body, the yamas (together with the niyamas) are its essential first two steps. Further, the Patanjali states that it is not enough to observe them for their individual ends (i.e. eradication of hostility, conquering self, etc.); one must follow them without a desire for any end goals. The secret to attainment of these is to harness the mind into thinking of the opposite of the element one needs to overcome.

The ten traditional yamas are:

Ahimsa (अहिंसा): Nonviolence. Abstinence from injury; harmlessness, the not causing of pain to any living creature in thought, word, or deed at any time. This and Satya (सत्य) are the "main" yama. The other eight are there in support of its accomplishment.

Satya (सत्य): truthfulness, word and thought in conformity with the facts.

Asteya (अस्तेय): non-stealing, non-coveting, non-entering into debt.

Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): divine conduct, continence, celibate when single, faithful when married.

Kshama (क्षमा): patience, releasing time, functioning in the now.

Dhriti (धृति): steadfastness, overcoming non-perseverance, fear, and indecision; seeing each task through to completion.

Daya (दया): compassion; conquering callous, cruel and insensitive feelings toward all beings.

Arjava (अर्जव): honesty, straightforwardness, renouncing deception and wrongdoing.

Mitahara (मितहार): moderate appetite, neither eating too much nor too little; nor consuming meat, fish, shellfish, fowl or eggs.

Shaucha (शौच): purity, avoidance of impurity in body, mind and speech. (Note: Patanjali's Yoga Sutras list Shaucha as the first of the Niyamas.)

The ten traditional Niyamas are:

Hri: remorse, being modest and showing shame for misdeeds;

Santosha: contentment; being satisfied with the resources at hand - therefore not desiring more;

Dana: giving, without thought of reward;

Astikya: faith, believing firmly in the teacher, the teachings and the path to enlightenment;

Ishvarapujana: worship of the Lord, the cultivation of devotion through daily worship and meditation, the return to the source;

Siddhanta shravana: scriptural listening, studying the teachings and listening to the wise of one's lineage;

Mati: cognition, developing a spiritual will and intellect with the guru's guidance;

Vrata: sacred vows, fulfilling religious vows, rules and observances faithfully;

Japa: recitation, chanting mantras daily;

Tapas: the endurance of the opposites; hunger and thirst, heat and cold, standing and sitting etc.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:54:03 AM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.

Well said, my feelings exactly.

But you have to get rid of that creepy avatar.

But I like the joker cat...

Joker cat? I thought it was supposed to be a transgendered cat! Hence "y so SRS" (sex reassignment surgery)

although then again that may be a comment directed at the Joker himself...

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 9/30/2011 7:00:34 AM >

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:54:58 AM

kalikshama

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 7:19:01 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
But I like the joker cat...

hmmm,.. with those black eyes,.. I thought it was a goth cat..

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 1:09:00 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.

Well said, my feelings exactly.

But you have to get rid of that creepy avatar.

But I like the joker cat...

Joker cat? I thought it was supposed to be a transgendered cat! Hence "y so SRS" (sex reassignment surgery) although then again that may be a comment directed at the Joker himself...

It's lolcat for "serious", mate. What Heath Ledger's dad said to him before carving his face up?

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 3:50:21 PM

Anaxagoras

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.

Well said, my feelings exactly.

But you have to get rid of that creepy avatar.

But I like the joker cat...

Joker cat? I thought it was supposed to be a transgendered cat! Hence "y so SRS" (sex reassignment surgery) although then again that may be a comment directed at the Joker himself...

It's lolcat for "serious", mate. What Heath Ledger's dad said to him before carving his face up?

I thought it meant "why so serious" perhaps with a double meaning but then again I had to look up what "lolcat" meant!

BTW a suggestion for your new avatar leading up to Christmas.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 5:08:45 PM

BendingGender

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Without reading through all of the other replies (so pardon me if anyone else has said something similar) I think that the concept of "being good" emerged as something of a necessity to functional groups of clustering humans. I think the fact that humans moved in units lay down the foundation for "being good". To each other. In their own group. And when they happened across another nomadic group they had the option of extending the same sort of treatment to that group, or trying to do them in for resources, territory, or simply out of fear of the unknown. And as groups of humans turned toward farming and raising livestock rather than living as hunter/gatherers it became even more essential to have law and order among their numbers. So general rules of acceptable behavior were formed.

People were still not "good" to all of their neighbors, whether they believed in a higher power or not. If another group seemed vulnerable - and had something the first group wanted - it was okay for them to wage war, claim their spoils, and go on about their business. In some countries, that doesn't seem to have changed at all. Even with God, Allah, the great Sky Faerie, or the beaded hobo up the magical tree lording his/her/their rules over people... you still have murder and rape. You've still got theft and bigotry.

Can you be good without god... Sure. And you can be a sociopathic, mindless prick with "god" on your side, as well.

I don't believe in an invisible friend, but I've never been arrested. And I've never broken any law that I find sensible. But, in the instances where I have, I have not done so with malice or intent to injure another or infringe on another individual's rights.

I wouldn't say I'm "good", but I haven't met anyone in a face-to-face scenario who thinks I'm Satan. Well, except for one guy. >_> But that had nothing to do with character, and everything to do with a very bad prescription drug side effect.

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 5:38:33 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs. I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own. I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives. I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves. So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die." (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff).

I'm a Christian but...whatever "God" is, Buddha, Jesus, all the others....we all have a DNA mapping program that tells us all what's right and what's wrong. (Well, most of us....we'll exclude Ted Bundy, George Bush II and maybe Donald Trump for the sake of this discussion).

You don't have to be a Christian to know what's right or wrong...and frankly (as a Christian), as soon as someone tells me "you can trust me, I'm a Christian" or....if they have a little fish on their business card (code for "I'm a Christian...you can trust me")....I put my hand on my wallet and run as fast as can.

If you can't tell by someone's actions who, what and why they are....ain't no label gonna prove what they profess.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 9/30/2011 5:41:41 PM >

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RE: Can we be "good" without god? - 9/30/2011 6:20:19 PM

MasterSlaveLA