Can we be "good" without god? (Full Version)

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Iamsemisweet -> Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:32:58 AM)

Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs.  I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own.  I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives.  I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves.  So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die."  (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff).



GreedyTop -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:39:03 AM)

I twould like to think that I DO follow the ideals set out by (whomever)

do unto others...

dont cast the first stone unless...

etc.

YEs, I was RAISED as a Christian, but I see nothing about the (alleged) teachings of the (alleged) Christ that should not apply to all humans, in a perfect world.

I watched my late Grandfather (who was a devout Episcopalian).. he was one of those who walked the walk WITHOUT feeling compelled to TALK THE WALK (if that makes sense).

much to his (I imagine) chagrin, I feel that one can embody those principles without having to subscribe to any particular faith.

I hope to god *snicker* that this made sense.. I am sleepy and off to bed..



Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:44:24 AM)

I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.



Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:45:57 AM)

I think the majority of people who live their lives trying to do good, or at least trying not to intentionally do harm, can trace it back to a positive influence in their early life - a parent, a relative, a mentor. That person didn't necessarily have to approach it from a religious or spiritual basis.

There could also be an element of enlightened self-interest: When you realize that the majority of people would treat you nicely if you treat them nicely and that the majority of people would treat you poorly if you treat them poorly, why not treat people nicely? That way, you get less crap back.



LaTigresse -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:46:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.


This.



Lucylastic -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:51:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race.


This.


empathy and compassion are not just from christianity.
As an agnostic, I have no desire for trampling over others beliefs, so I dont have much to add. I rarely do in religious topics. But wanted to add my agreement to the feelings writen by the others:)



VirginPotty -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 12:21:30 PM)

OP,
I've found most "Christians" to be that in name only.  Their actions speak otherwise.
Everyone has their own belief and people have been crucified if their beliefs didn't follow anothers.  All done in the name of God.

I always think about something I read long ago when an atheist & a Christian were debating the existense of God and the Christian told the atheist to live like they believe in God (be good to one another) and if there is one when they die, great! & if not what harm did it do?

**Eta, to answer your question OP, YES you can be "good w/o God"**



AneNoz -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 12:43:58 PM)

Goodness and evil come not from the Gods, but from within, the Gods but place the potential and it is for each to seek the right. People strive to do that which is good for it is good. Goodness has no reason beyond itself, nor does evil. Nor, as well, do they have a cause beyond yourself. The Gods but can guide and advise, they inspire and tempt one toward good or evil, according to their natures, but it is for you to chose. The way is before you with uncountable paths and crossings, you must chose that which you will follow.

Be at peace
Aneka



Anaxagoras -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 12:49:59 PM)

Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.



Fightdirecto -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 1:21:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.

The general sense of what is "good" is definitely related to the general teachings of what constitutes "good" within the prevailing religion of the society - whether or not the individual is religious or non-religious. Kind of a sub-conscious influence.



geilematz -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 1:24:25 PM)

yes - no difference with or without
if really in need of guidance about what "good" should mean ... read Kant



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 1:28:20 PM)

I agree with that, to an extent.  Certainly the idea of doing on to others, for example, is good and based on religion.  Other things, especially in the sexual realm, I am not so sure.  Many religions frown on homosexuality, but that kind of narrow mindedness is not something I would consider "good."  Even when I was somewhat religious (Mormon, of all things), I couldn't understand why God would care about trivia, like who was having sex with who.  Obviously, mormonism was not for me.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.

The general sense of what is "good" is definitely related to the general teachings of what constitutes "good" within the prevailing religion of the society - whether or not the individual is religious or non-religious. Kind of a sub-conscious influence.



Anaxagoras -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 1:49:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Can we be "good" without god? Probably not.

The general sense of what is "good" is definitely related to the general teachings of what constitutes "good" within the prevailing religion of the society - whether or not the individual is religious or non-religious. Kind of a sub-conscious influence.

I was giving a very broad response regardless of the society and the values advocated by a given religion but I agree that values and what constitutes "good" are subjective to some extent and somewhat relative. The question as I see it (although admittedly slightly different to the OP) is whether religion generally speaking is better for the individual and for societies generally of which the individual is a member. Its not easy to answer but my own view is perhaps not. Having said that I don't excuse the excesses of religion which can often turn oppressive, and lead to a lot of conflict, but at the same time the benefits of religion are too often forgotten today. Bear in mind I say this as an agnostic... [:D]



Marc2b -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 1:57:40 PM)

Can we be good without God? Yes.

I'm an agonistic (AKA an atheist who is hedging his bets) and I do not view the Creator as a daddy figure the way Christianity and so many other religions do. I'm more inclined to believe that we are here to learn on our own. Did you ever teach a child how to ride a bike? You run along with them, holding the handlebars but at some point you let go because you know that they have to do this themselves, that it is the only way they will learn. You do, however, continue to run along side them, claping your hands and shouting encouragement. That is how I view our relationship to God. We were let go at birth but whenever you feel that prickling of conscience that tells you to take action when you see suffering or an injustice commited... that's God, running along side you, claping his hands and shouting encouragement.

Still, I am open to the possibility that there is no God and that our so called morals are really a combination of instinct and learned behavior. I think a strong case can be made for this. We are a tribal species and our instincts (reinforced by learned behavior) are geared toward benevolence toward our fellow tribe members and indifference (at best) toward those outside the tribe. If you think that we no longer live in tribes, you are wrong. Instead of living in a single, small tribe like our ancestors, today we belong to a series of interlocking tribes: family, friends, school, sports team, religion, political party, nation, race, etc. The intesity of our loyalties to any particular one varies from individual to individual and over time. Humanity will never find true peace within its' ranks until the vast majority of us view the whole of the human race as our tribe. I think this process is just now starting... we've a long ways to go.

Another posibility: It has been said (I forget by who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that there is no such thing as selflessness. That all acts are selfish, even the apparently selfless ones because we do them for the selfish reason of feeling good about ourselves. I think there is some truth to this. I refuse to be so cynical as to believe that a truly selfless act never occurs but I think they may be rather uncommon. But so what? Even if we are motivated to feel good about ourselves... well, people have been motivated by far worse things.



SternSkipper -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 10:42:36 PM)

quote:

Can we be good without God? Yes.

I'm an agonistic (AKA an atheist who is hedging his bets)


How can you be agnostic even? You can BELIEVE a yugo can overtake an SUV therefore demonstrating devine intervention.
[:-]



Owner59 -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 10:47:17 PM)

Did "good" exist before religion did?

I sure hope so.



tazzygirl -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:07:49 PM)

Can you be good without god?

Of course

Just as someone can be bad with god

Jim Jones, Baker, Swaggert... just to name a few



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:27:50 PM)

Hmmm. Religion does go back a long time, and even primitive man seemed to have rudimentary religion. Religion is one of the things that civilized us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Did "good" exist before religion did?

I sure hope so.



tweakabelle -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:37:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Did "good" exist before religion did?

I sure hope so.

Good news for you! How could good not exist before religion? It seems quite impossible to me.

Religion can be seen as the formal co-option (or manipulation if you prefer) of whatever values a society considers good by the society's power structure. If you find that valid, then good (values) must pre-exist any religion.

It's even clearer if you look at it the other way around: Can religion exist without values (of good and evil)? Without thinking about it too deeply, I find that hard to imagine, though it might be theoretically possible.



Termyn8or -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (9/29/2011 11:37:44 PM)

"I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race. "

Get ready for the eventuality that we agree.

I have exhibited mercy, when it was dangerous to myself to do so from my position of power. I had good reason to do so. When I don't, I have no problem hurting, and doing it in style.

But there are times you just shouldn't.

T^T



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