RE: I renounce Christianity (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 2:29:40 AM)


One of the most wonderful experiences in my life was witnessing the last 3 years of my very close cousin's life, and her final departure.

Sounds odd, does it not? No question, I would like her to still be here among us, but the way she handled the whole thing will stay with me forever, and the vision of her wonderful smile through the worst of it will always haunt me, in a good way, the way she insists on.

She was always a cool customer, somewhat of a 'plain Jane' in some regards, but she always took interest in what her wacko cousin had to say, and had some inherent bit of 'snark' about her, but manifested in a fun way as only she could display it. I recall, two years after she had been diagnosed with ALS and told she had 3-5 years to live (turned out to be 3), my asking her mom (my aunt) what she wanted on the pizza we were ordering. My cousin said something  incomprehensible, because the brain and motor function thing don't work anymore, so I asked her to repeat it. Her mouth could hardly move, but she got it out that "you are asking her to make up her mind," speaking of her characteristically indecisive mother. Don't expect the snark to go away, just because her mouth hardly works anymore.

When told that she now needed a breathing apparatus to remain living, she said to unplug it. She looked and smiled at her dad, her mom, my sister, closed her eyes, and that was that.

But she kept getting funnier as the situation deteriorated. I sure hope I can be like that when the time comes, even if occurring at a somewhat 'normal' age.

No, I don't consider death to be a 'good' thing, but no way in hell am I going to waste the wonderful experience that my cousin gave me. She won't allow it.









SuzeCheri -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 8:38:19 AM)

quote:

So to create (the illusion of) mutual exclusivity it contrasts "pure goodness" with evil, trying to have its way by playing on two fields at once.
No it doesn't. You are misunderstanding the argument. It isn't a question of contrasts or opposites. Let me put it to you this way.

The assumption is that the God is one of pure goodness. Using pure in the sense of wholly or completely so a God made up entirely of good without any evil whatsoever. For a God of pure goodness, evil itself is impossible, in fact nothing but good is possible. So, we must exclude even the possibility of the slightest amount of evil on the part of this God.  Such a God simply can do no evil.

Allowing the existence of evil is in and of itself at least partially evil, as it will involve doing harm to completely innocent people.

So, quite clearly, allowing the existence of evil is against the very nature of a God of pure goodness.

A (Good can do no evil)
B (Allowing evil is evil)
These two things are mutually exclusive. A≠B.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 8:41:50 AM)

Oh for crying out loud. You dont have to do evil to allow evil.

People have wasted enough time on your nonsense. [8|]

Have a great life!



TreasureKY -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 9:13:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

Do you believe that Jesus existed and was the son of God?
I have no idea if he existed or not, I have no real reason to doubt it, but there is, to the best of my knowledge, no hard historical evidence to support it,

EPD: To be honest, at this point I am inclined to believe that everything in the New Testament is a fabrication.

Was he the son of God? No, I do not believe that he was.

that you believe in God, (Yes, so far I still do) that Jesus was the son of God (Absolutely not) and died on the cross for all of our sins. (Absolutely not, that bit never made any sense to me because according to Trinitarian theology he couldn't die, so there was no sacrifice)

Here are three questions for you.
Do you believe God is omnipotent?
Do you believe God is omniscient?
Do you believe God is onmibenevolent?



Cheri,

I'm simply going by what information you've provided in your posts, so forgive me if I am wrong.

You have not said if your rejection the idea of Jesus being the Son of God is recent, but if you have always believed as you state above, then you have never been a Christian or Catholic.  It sounds as if, although you were raised to participate in the Catholic religion, you have merely practiced a portion of the ritual.

In my opinion, the entire issue you raised and the one that you question is the nature of God... if indeed there is a God.  The problem you appear to have is reconciling what you've been taught, with what seems logical to you and what you would prefer to believe.

I would purport that pretty much everyone here has just presented their own thoughts and musings on how they've have addressed this issue in their own lives.  I don't believe anyone here has tried to convince you to convert, adopt their beliefs, or change in any way.  We understand that you've experienced a terrible and senseless loss in your life.

I'd recommend that you let go of trying to make that reconciliation with the dogmatic Christian theology you insist exists in the way you understand.



GreedyTop -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 10:54:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

[Cheri,

I'm simply going by what information you've provided in your posts, so forgive me if I am wrong.

You have not said if your rejection the idea of Jesus being the Son of God is recent, but if you have always believed as you state above, then you have never been a Christian or Catholic.  It sounds as if, although you were raised to participate in the Catholic religion, you have merely practiced a portion of the ritual.

In my opinion, the entire issue you raised and the one that you question is the nature of God... if indeed there is a God.  The problem you appear to have is reconciling what you've been taught, with what seems logical to you and what you would prefer to believe.

I would purport that pretty much everyone here has just presented their own thoughts and musings on how they've have addressed this issue in their own lives.  I don't believe anyone here has tried to convince you to convert, adopt their beliefs, or change in any way.  We understand that you've experienced a terrible and senseless loss in your life.

I'd recommend that you let go of trying to make that reconciliation with the dogmatic Christian theology you insist exists in the way you understand.




this



Real0ne -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 12:38:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh for crying out loud. You dont have to do evil to allow evil.

People have wasted enough time on your nonsense. [8|]

Have a great life!



she dodged my point how many times that shows the hypocrisy in her position.

now this:
A (Good can do no evil)
B (Allowing evil is evil)

More of the same ill framed misapplied premises.





Kirata -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 1:26:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quote:

So to create (the illusion of) mutual exclusivity it contrasts "pure goodness" with evil, trying to have its way by playing on two fields at once.

No it doesn't. You are misunderstanding the argument. It isn't a question of contrasts or opposites. Let me put it to you this way.

Are you saying tweakabelle misunderstands her own argument?

my argument relies on 'good' and 'evil' being mutually exclusionary

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

quite clearly, allowing the existence of evil is against the very nature of a God of pure goodness.
A (Good can do no evil)
B (Allowing evil is evil)
These two things are mutually exclusive. A≠B.

But, here you're back to mutual exclusivity again. And that's the problem. It's the only way the argument works, but good and evil just aren't so neatly separable. Allowing human beings free will isn't evil, but evil may in some cases be the consequence. Now what?

It simply isn't possible to limit free will only with respect to acts that are evil. Some of the greatest evils committed in this world have been perpetrated by human beings who believed that they were acting for the greatest good. And sometimes, too, good ends up coming out of evil. Only an omniscient being could possibly know whether in the long run more good than evil would come of commiting an act, however good or evil it might be in itself. And a world of perfectly managed zombies would be neither moral nor good.

The fact is, we don't enter the realm of mutually exclusive good and evil until we propose "pure goodness" and "pure evil." And then, of course, we're talking about abstractions, perfect absolutes, which have no relation to reality.

K.



kalikshama -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 2:08:25 PM)

quote:

Again, if you know of any Christian denomination that rejects the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and just model of God, then please tell me about it. I would like to know if such a group existed and learn more about it.


Over the years, I've gone to over a dozen Unitarian services lead by a variety of minister/lay people. There's very little (if any) dogma in the services. Maybe some real Unitarians can discuss further, or you could try attending a service.

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Unitarian-Universalism.html

Unitarian-Universalism Reality and Divine Beings

Although opinions vary, most contemporary Unitarian Universalists hesitate to speak of an omnipotent, anthropomorphic deity, believing instead that this world is itself imbued with the divine. They honor Jesus as a great teacher and leader, and they accord this status to other religious leaders or founders as well.

Unitarian-Universalism Suffering and the Problem of Evil

Unitarian Universalism has no single theology of pain, evil, or suffering, and the religion's liberal optimism creates a focus on the alleviation of suffering rather than illumination of its cause.



kalikshama -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 2:15:51 PM)

quote:

You have not said if your rejection the idea of Jesus being the Son of God is recent, but if you have always believed as you state above, then you have never been a Christian or Catholic. 


The Unitarians have rejected Christ's divinity for centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

Unitarianism is a Christian theological movement, named for its understanding of God as one person, in direct contrast to Trinitarianism which defines God as three persons coexisting consubstantially as one in being.[1]

For most of its history, Unitarianism has been known for the rejection of several orthodox Protestant doctrines besides the Trinity,[2] including the soteriological doctrines of original sin and predestination,[3][4] and, in more recent times, biblical inerrancy.[5

Christology

Unitarians adhere to strict monotheism, and maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself.[23] They believe Jesus did not claim to be God, and that his teachings did not suggest the existence of a triune God. Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity of Jesus. Their theology is thus opposed to the trinitarian theology of other Christian denominations.



TreasureKY -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 2:24:37 PM)

A good try, Kali, but she already rejected Unitarianism.  It was the very first link I provided her here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzeCheri

Ok, I reviewed all the links you sent me, and not one of them in anyway refutes the notion of God (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and just) that I say cannot be reconciled with reality, so those links seem to confirm that the model is the Christian model.


There really isn't any point in trying to offer alternatives.  She doesn't appear to be truly interested.  I believe she is just angry... angry that her friend was senselessly murdered... angry at God... and angry that how she was spiritually raised doesn't seem to fit reality.

She's made her decision.  It's okay.  [;)]



kalikshama -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 4:51:16 PM)

IMO, my patheos link was more on point to the specific question.



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 5:12:32 PM)

What I found disturbing is the number of people who congratulated someone for what she, herself, described as ... it is a painful and unpleasant process



Iamsemisweet -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 5:21:25 PM)

It was a painful process for her because she was vested in the whole process and ritual of Catholicism. I get that, having come from a highly ritualistic church myself. But why the need for a big announcement? And why did others feel the need to respond?



tazzygirl -> RE: I renounce Christianity (10/2/2011 5:25:18 PM)

I was bored and decided a discussion on the whys would be interesting.



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