RE: Race and skin color. (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 3:32:33 AM)

Well, to be fair, one who is of an ancestry that bears a skin colour which is darker than the supposed majority voice, has a valid point and that by being darker, but skin colour is a very contentious issue and very likely to elicit calls of racism from many quarters, almost as if it was a knee jerk reaction to any talk on skin colour. I wonder if the reaction would be same if it were the lighter skin colours that were the subject of the conversation, as the term 'white' does not fit those that are termed by it, because apart from the albino who is truly white, and even then the albino isn't white. So the use of colour pigmentation is a useless description, because many who deal with colour pigmentation will tell you, there are many shades of black and many shades of white, so simply using black and white to describe all is useless.

But why is skin colour such a sticky subject, well from a personal and perhaps historical perspective, my country conquered most of the world in it's past and in order for it to do that it had to make enemies to fight to gain a foothold in a country of choice and the way it did was to demonise the people to the public, there still exists statues in various places where those from Africa are portrayed as almost sub human. What we have especially in the older generation is a lingering fear of what is termed black and that residue from the past. On the whole, the younger generation in this country have no problem with skin colour except perhaps for the derogatory use as an insult, because we all know insults are designed to hurt.

Now observations of our cousins, the Americans much of their unease is also historical, so the past in this issue is as in every other issue a problem, what our ancestors did, we aren't to blame for it, but it would help matters immensely if we recognised that fact and their analysed our attitude, because if you do, many will find prejudices totally unfounded. From my experience those who hate, do so because they are people who generally have a lot to say about many things and even that usually boils down to just plain old insecurity and with that, unfounded fear. But why insecure, well that I believe is simply the pecking order of nature someone has to be superior to another and by that someone has to be inferior to another, we apparently subconsciously compare ourselves to others to judge our feelings on self adequacy, in a society ruled by classes those presented to the majority as sub human receive the inferior title in order to elevate those they require service of, just simple people manipulation and a method that has been working well throughout history, mostly militarily.

As to a fitting description, if I am asked to describe a person, I have noticed one of the first things asked usually by the plod, is what skin colour, and to that I answer dark or light tone, depending which tone I perceived, (one works with sensitometry in photography, one learns colours are in fact tones, especially with the visual black and white perception, how does colour translate and the link to the amount of light an object is exposed to).

Obviously such an answer annoys so further questions are asked and this is where I have learned to be very careful, ( I have got a police officer's goat before by the use of out dated terminology to describe a person of which he just happened to be one, unbeknown to me, but he enlightened me to that fact and was somewhat snotty thereafter ),as plod like to put words into peoples mouths, and using tones as a description flies right over many a plod's head. Usually I get asked to exemplify and I would say a skin tone with similarity to say whatever nationality, as it is usual most country's even have their inter-country difference depending on where they are in the world, stereotypes are known, perhaps a vestige from our tribal past, tribal being largely familial in origin. But as some like to put words into people's mouths people like the plod then go on to say I am meaning a person of such and such ethnicity, to which I say, no, I said similar to not the same as, there is a difference. so what I am trying to get across, is I won't go into supposed ethnicity as in our modern world that can be indecisive, so to be accurate, one has to be accurate and I am a p.i.t.a to people whom I perceive as offensive, plod by experience, I distrust the plod and that from experience and that was just their questioning.

But using the terms; black or white is largely useless and no good for accurate descriptions of which I believe such institutions as the plod depend.

But an interesting page on the subject of colour and tone




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 3:46:01 AM)

Holy cow Aneirin! That is one long post!

It isn't just the OP's mention of skin colour. He also had the bad taste to bring up some offensive terms and descriptions.




invisiblus -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 3:55:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster


Now - how does this resolve the problem?


It doesn't resolve the problem, thats exactly the point. Over categorization would only over complicate things. It is best only to use these attributes as a reference point when the context really requires them. For example if we were talking about skin cancer we may have mentioned the skin color's relation to cancer occurrence rates , and in that case there wouldn't be any need of bringing your geographical origin, and all it's subdetails into the subject. At the same time if you were telling me about Spanish food, you would have told me your origin, but we wouldn't find any need of mentioning your skin color.




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:13:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

For me? Or my boobs? :P


I assumed I would get the total package, and not just parts in the post ( Thats English for mail ).. lol



I love my boobies! And I don't go anywhere without them. ;)

I got "the post" part. I'm from a commonwealth nation. ;)




tweakabelle -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:28:54 AM)

If the point of the OP is to highlight how unnecessary the question about "ethnicity" in the personal details section of the site is, then it would have been better to make that purpose clearer, more explicit.

If the point is something else, then "better not to separate at all". Because most people here are going to find the premise racist - which is unsurprising .. it is racist. The only reason I'm not being more pointed in my criticism is that for some reason I'm yet to be fully convinced that the OP intended to be racist. I just wish I felt more confident about my reticence.




Aneirin -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:29:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Holy cow Aneirin! That is one long post!

It isn't just the OP's mention of skin colour. He also had the bad taste to bring up some offensive terms and descriptions.




I tend to treat people's colourful use of terminology without suspicion, because I know there are people on here whose first language might not be English and with that not all English education is the best, so allowances have to be made, but if a person is educated to the fact that their choice of terminology is perhaps unpalatable and they then continue with that nomenclature, only then will I believe they intend harm. Basically give someone the benefit of the doubt before chewing a hole in them.




Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:31:15 AM)



~FR~

The OP explained well enough that what is considered a "bad term" in one language is a simple everyday term in another language. 

In any good "Mexican" or Spanish language restaurant one can see 'frijole negra' or 'frijole negra refritos' on the menu. If that means "nig**r beans" to you, then you are the one that needs to learn something, get out in the world, take something other than a poetry class, etc. Imagine being in another country, saying the English word "black" to describe the color of a car painted thuswise, and everybody pointing at you, saying "racist!" That's half the responses here. Ignorant.


Truly, get out in the world, folks.







DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:33:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Holy cow Aneirin! That is one long post!

It isn't just the OP's mention of skin colour. He also had the bad taste to bring up some offensive terms and descriptions.




I tend to treat people's colourful use of terminology without suspicion, because I know there are people on here whose first language might not be English and with that not all English education is the best, so allowances have to be made, but if a person is educated to the fact that their choice of terminology is perhaps unpalatable and they then continue with that nomenclature, only then will I believe they intend harm. Basically give someone the benefit of the doubt before chewing a hole in them.


Sorry, but that's an excuse on his part. He's well versed in English. He has made offensive comments. And for what purpose? Seriously.




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:35:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


~FR~

The OP explained well enough that what is considered a "bad term" in one language is a simple everyday term in another language. 

In any good "Mexican" or Spanish language restaurant one can see 'frijole negra' or 'frijole negra refritos.' If that means "nig**r beans" to you, then you are the one that needs to learn something, get out in the world, take something other than a poetry class, etc. Imagine being in another country, saying the English word "black" to describe the color of a car painted thuswise, and everybody pointing at you, saying "racist!" That's half the responses here. Ignorant.


Truly, get out in the world, folks.


So you're okay with his referring to an older person as "boy"? Or suggesting the use of "curly-hairs" and "wide-noses"?




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:37:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If the point of the OP is to highlight how unnecessary the question about "ethnicity" in the personal details section of the site is, then it would have been better to make that purpose clearer, more explicit.

If the point is something else, then "better not to separate at all". Because most people here are going to find the premise racist - which is unsurprising .. it is racist. The only reason I'm not being more pointed in my criticism is that for some reason I'm yet to be fully convinced that the OP intended to be racist. I just wish I felt more confident about my reticence.


He started two threads back to back on the issue of race. And not just race in general, but those of African heritage in particular.




Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:41:13 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

So you're okay with his referring to an older person as "boy"? Or suggesting the use of "curly-hairs" and "wide-noses"?




I am OK with the OP's explanation that some people go about it that way, that being their only perspective, etc. I understood clearly that that was not the entirety of his perspective, if at all. He was rather in fact attempting to point out the fallacy in that.










SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:44:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I wonder if the reaction would be same if it were the lighter skin colours that were the subject of the conversation, as the term 'white' does not fit...

Right, and good point, but precisely as it arises no problems to speak about "white" people, I did not have any necessity to ask. I simply use "white", with the same logic as I use "big" for a guy who is only 0.1% as tall as a mountain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
there are many shades of black and many shades of white, so simply using black and white to describe all is useless.

Why useless? It is a simplification. Is it useless to speak about rich and poor even when there are many degrees of each? Please explain me this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But why is skin colour such a sticky subject, well from a personal and perhaps historical perspective...

No doubt. That's why I have to ask in the first place. I wish it were not so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As to a fitting description, if I am asked to describe a person, I have noticed one of the first things asked usually by the plod, is what skin colour, and to that I answer dark or light tone, depending which tone I perceived

You would then say "the dark-skinned people are discriminated in..." for example? Or "The dark-toned..."?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I would say a skin tone with similarity to say whatever nationality

"The people with a skin tone similar to most Ghanese are discriminated in..." ?

I did not understood which would be your proposal, how would you formulate a sentence which is about that group, how would you name them.

Anyway, thank you for the insight, it was very interesting :) .




Aneirin -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:45:14 AM)

Like I say, I give people the benefit of the doubt until I personally learn otherwise, and Edwynn did bring up a pertinent point, what is considered unacceptable in one country might be perfectly acceptable in another, so again benefit of the doubt, but I hope the OP will have absorbed by now what might be acceptable where he comes from, others on the world stage think different and as he is the minority here, he will have to tow the majority acceptability line if he wishes to continue posting here and everyone that agrees to TOS knows that, even if they may forget it at times.

But an interesting question in itself, how can one adequately describe a phrase to question, if they are prevented from saying it.

I believe we are all meant to be adults here, therefore one hopes there is a degree of maturity, not as is indicated many times on many threads in this forum, the schoolyard finger pointing and ganging up of indecisive minds behind an obvious leader.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:47:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: invisiblus

It is best only to use these attributes as a reference point when the context really requires them.


Ok. Please consider this context: "In the Dominican Republic, _____ are usually discriminated and have a hard time getting a job."
The people referred to are those, who have external characteristics which match the ones of the mayority of the of Subsaharian Africa, specially before the XVIII century.
Can you please, please, try to fill in the sentence? If the only way is to say "who have external characteristics which match the ones of the mayority of the of Subsaharian Africa, specially before the XVIII century are usually discriminated and have a hard time getting a job", then I think that the language you are using as a problem of lack of expressiveness in this point.

Thank you.




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:51:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

So you're okay with his referring to an older person as "boy"? Or suggesting the use of "curly-hairs" and "wide-noses"?




I am OK with the OP's explanation that some people go about it that way, that being their only perspective, etc. I understood clearly that that was not the entirety of his perspective, he was rather in fact attempting to point out the fallacy in that.


Exactly what purpose, other than being deliberately provocative, would the OP have in bringing it up?




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:53:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Like I say, I give people the benefit of the doubt until I personally learn otherwise, and Edwynn did bring up a pertinent point, what is considered unacceptable in one country might be perfectly acceptable in another, so again benefit of the doubt, but I hope the OP will have absorbed by now what might be acceptable where he comes from, others on the world stage think different and as he is the minority here, he will have to tow the majority acceptability line if he wishes to continue posting here and everyone that agrees to TOS knows that, even if they may forget it at times.

But an interesting question in itself, how can one adequately describe a phrase to question, if they are prevented from saying it.

I believe we are all meant to be adults here, therefore one hopes there is a degree of maturity, not as is indicated many times on many threads in this forum, the schoolyard finger pointing and ganging up of indecisive minds behind an obvious leader.


Precisely what do you see as being the OP's motivation here? Do you think it's to enlighten? You haven't read his past posts if you believe that.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:54:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If the point of the OP is to highlight how unnecessary the question about "ethnicity" in the personal details section of the site is, then it would have been better to make that purpose clearer, more explicit.

If the point is something else, then "better not to separate at all". Because most people here are going to find the premise racist - which is unsurprising .. it is racist. The only reason I'm not being more pointed in my criticism is that for some reason I'm yet to be fully convinced that the OP intended to be racist. I just wish I felt more confident about my reticence.


Your answer is of course valid, but please consider my previous message - would you be able to express that worrying societal problem of the Dominican Republic? How?

The premise that it may be ok (less helpful than damaging) to categorize a population with "races" is racist? Well... it is a very complex subject IMO. I wanted to avoid it. But ok... so... if you mean, categorize the human population in a fixed set of races, I consider it inadequate and yes, much more dangerous than helpful. Still, can you tell me how it complies with the definition of "racism" of the Merrian Webster?

But to categorize human beings in flexible sets of "races" which match a specific purpose for a specific context, like for example in my example about the Dominican Republic, where there is a problem of racism against... against... you know whom? I do not consider that this more dangerous than helpful, in the contrary, ignoring the matter will not resolve it and to understand the matter you have to formulate it. And to formulate it you have to name it. Maybe, and this is a friendly and totally honest proposal, you would prefer "the people considered 'blacks' by the racists"? That would resolve the problem in some way...

"The people considered 'black' by the racist have problems of discrminiation in the Dominican Republic, having a hard time to get a job". This sentence works, actually. Maybe this would be acceptable?

Best regards.




NakisisaX -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:55:23 AM)

We're Africans; either living on the continent or throughout the diaspora. The people darker than blue that can create blue/black to albino and all shades in between. Unfortunately, "African" is a dirty word to a lot of those who could go to any city over there and blend in. Those you've mentioned in Egypt or Morocco have mixed in with the indigenous population of long ago but are more of an invasive species. Calling those cats African may get a shoe thrown at you or worse. Its the same with calling those who consider themselves "hispanic", black or African. They'll deny and declare loyalties to the spanish crown even though Spain appreciates the loyalty, they treat them like any other melanated peoples are treated, bottoming out the socioeconomic scale. We are a people of many things, names included but the common denominator is African. You can't add it on to another continental name like "African-American"...wtf is that? You're either one or the other and circumstances alone decide that for you.
We're Africans, just like you are all europeans no matter where you go.




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 4:59:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX

We're Africans; either living on the continent or throughout the diaspora. The people darker than blue that can create blue/black to albino and all shades in between. Unfortunately, "African" is a dirty word to a lot of those who could go to any city over there and blend in. Those you've mentioned in Egypt or Morocco have mixed in with the indigenous population of long ago but are more of an invasive species. Calling those cats African may get a shoe thrown at you or worse. Its the same with calling those who consider themselves "hispanic", black or African. They'll deny and declare loyalties to the spanish crown even though Spain appreciates the loyalty, they treat them like any other melanated peoples are treated, bottoming out the socioeconomic scale. We are a people of many things, names included but the common denominator is African. You can't add it on to another continental name like "African-American"...wtf is that? You're either one or the other and circumstances alone decide that for you.
We're Africans, just like you are all europeans no matter where you go.


But if you're born in the USA, you're American.




Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:08:30 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

So you're okay with his referring to an older person as "boy"? Or suggesting the use of "curly-hairs" and "wide-noses"?




I am OK with the OP's explanation that some people go about it that way, that being their only perspective, etc. I understood clearly that that was not the entirety of his perspective, he was rather in fact attempting to point out the fallacy in that.


Exactly what purpose, other than being deliberately provocative, would the OP have in bringing it up?




I don't think the OP is being as "deliberate" in his provocation as you assume. Evey initial post of his has been provocative in one way or another. I don't understand the constant focus on controversial subjects myself, but that's just the way he is. What I find "interesting" is that someone (the OP) who gives more thought to the process than displayed in the innumerable other posts here that are clearly intended to no purpose other than provocation, all refutation of fact and quite intentional "button pushing" in the process, do not raise anywhere near the hackles as witnessed here.

Honestly, over half the responses here are betraying the very behaviour and deeply held (and unacknowledged) beliefs the OP is speaking of.








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