RE: Race and skin color. (Full Version)

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NakisisaX -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:14:00 AM)

I'm a citizen of the country due to the necessary paperwork but my geneology only goes back so far here. Unless you're indigenous to this land going back prior to colonization, you're an immigrant with citizenship.



Kirata -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:17:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Exactly what purpose, other than being deliberately provocative, would the OP have in bringing it up?

He's trying to learn what "Politics & Religion" means in English?

K.



Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:25:14 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: DeviantlyD

Sorry, but that's an excuse on his part. He's well versed in English. He has made offensive comments. And for what purpose? Seriously.




If you think that ability to string some words (foreign to the speaker) together in attempt to express complex ideas constitutes being "well versed" in that language, then you have not delved very far into any non-English language, or any other way of thinking either. I don't see any attempt here to comprehend anything outside of the standard WASP mindset. None at all.

Core racism on display here.




Aneirin -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:41:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I wonder if the reaction would be same if it were the lighter skin colours that were the subject of the conversation, as the term 'white' does not fit...

Right, and good point, but precisely as it arises no problems to speak about "white" people, I did not have any necessity to ask. I simply use "white", with the same logic as I use "big" for a guy who is only 0.1% as tall as a mountain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
there are many shades of black and many shades of white, so simply using black and white to describe all is useless.

Why useless? It is a simplification. Is it useless to speak about rich and poor even when there are many degrees of each? Please explain me this.



Because often simplification offends, it is akin to lumping a vast number of people with separate national identities which they might be very proud of into one pot along with the not so nice people, and can therefore be taken as because a minority are bad, therefore all of them are bad, as is exemplified often in this forum by some when discussing Arabs or Muslims, a religion that covers many different ethnicities and racial types.

With rich versus poor, what defines rich and what defines poor, where is the cut off point for the poor when they could be by all accounts rich. There are even rich people who say they are poor because they don't have a large disposable income and that because their wealth is tied up in land, how often have you heard of some lord or other allowing their stately pile to fall to rack and ruin because they don't have the money to maintain it, pretty common in Britain before the advent of the National Trust. Accuracy of information is paramount so we know what we are talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
But why is skin colour such a sticky subject, well from a personal and perhaps historical perspective...

No doubt. That's why I have to ask in the first place. I wish it were not so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
As to a fitting description, if I am asked to describe a person, I have noticed one of the first things asked usually by the plod, is what skin colour, and to that I answer dark or light tone, depending which tone I perceived

You would then say "the dark-skinned people are discriminated in..." for example? Or "The dark-toned..."?


I would say dependent on where they are in the world, they may be discriminated against, but also remember it is not just dark skin that is discriminated against, for other shades and even the lighter shades come in for abuse from time to time, again dependent on where they are. As a point of interest where I live there are a lot of people with an Iberian look, but they are not foreigners, certainly not from foreign ancestry in the past three hundred years, because it is known that those blood lines came from Spain of around 1588 as shipwrecked sailors were often absorbed into the community after our weather, shoreline and navy had taken is toll. Similar people can be found in other parts of the UK and Ireland where the armada was wrecked. But these people often in my youth I would hear racial slurs levied about their skin tone, but I don't hear it anymore, as I believe our youth area bit different, they I think see difference in those that choose to be different, not what they cannot help and that because multiculturalism is a good educator, one is brought up with the people once scorned.

As to skin,if I knew the nationality I would use that, and if not as a general description I would say someone of a whatever skin tone with similarity to whatever until I knew more accurate information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I would say a skin tone with similarity to say whatever nationality

"The people with a skin tone similar to most Ghanese are discriminated in..." ?

I did not understood which would be your proposal, how would you formulate a sentence which is about that group, how would you name them.

Anyway, thank you for the insight, it was very interesting :) .




Again, I would refer to nationality in describing a person as that is what they are in the political world and I believe the preferred term unless they themselves have different thoughts on this, again, the more information the better, accuracy tends to ward off offence.



Kirata -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:46:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I don't see any attempt here to comprehend anything outside of the standard WASP mindset. None at all.

Core racism on display here.

Congratulations on being the first poster to throw an offensive sterotype at somebody.

K.



crazyml -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:53:01 AM)

Hmm...

I think you need to work a little to understand how some of the posters, including me, have inferred a racist undertone to your post. It could well be a linguistic thing - But your willingness to even posit "Negro", "Nigger" or "Blackie" suggests a really deep cultural insensitivity, or simply an ignorance of the connotations that are attached to these words. If it's the latter then cool - ignorance can be fixed, if it's the former then the fix may not be so easy.

For example, I wouldn't even ask how comfy you'd be with "Dago", "Taco-boy" or "Tequila-monkey" as descriptors of your origin.

The linguistic glitch continues with your concern over the term "Caucasian" - It's meaning in Russia is fairly moot, as it has been used (albeit not in a very consistent way) in the context of describing ethnicity over a period of many years. As it happens, the term has fallen out of favour in recent years - being replaced with "European" or "White" on most official forms in the UK and the US.

Colour is an imperfect way to define a person's enthicity, for many of the reasons you describe - and I'm really not sure how much is to be gained by using skin colour as a way of differentiating between people from different European countries.

But to take your question...

quote:

Ok. Please consider this context: "In the Dominican Republic, _____ are usually discriminated and have a hard time getting a job."


"people of African descent"

is what I'd pop in.








dovie -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 5:58:28 AM)

1. Why are you asking this question?

2. What have you internalized that you're --------with/about? Fill in the blanks.

3. Who do you see when you look in the mirror and what race and ethnicity is he really?

BTW, you are a Negroid and a Caucasoid. Hope that helps. Spain is a location. Love your nose!

best,
dovie 



Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:02:29 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Congratulations on being the first poster to throw an offensive sterotype at somebody.

K.




- Takes a bow -

For anybody who's looked outside of their own neighborhood, epistemologically speaking, it could be observed that approximately 85-90 % of people in the world are racists, by definition of the racist WASPs.


That helps, I'm sure.





SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:02:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakisisaX

We're Africans; either living on the continent or throughout the diaspora. The people darker than blue that can create blue/black to albino and all shades in between. Unfortunately, "African" is a dirty word to a lot of those who could go to any city over there and blend in. Those you've mentioned in Egypt or Morocco have mixed in with the indigenous population of long ago but are more of an invasive species. Calling those cats African may get a shoe thrown at you or worse. Its the same with calling those who consider themselves "hispanic", black or African. They'll deny and declare loyalties to the spanish crown even though Spain appreciates the loyalty, they treat them like any other melanated peoples are treated, bottoming out the socioeconomic scale. We are a people of many things, names included but the common denominator is African. You can't add it on to another continental name like "African-American"...wtf is that? You're either one or the other and circumstances alone decide that for you.
We're Africans, just like you are all europeans no matter where you go.

This is a very, very interesting insight. Thank you very, very much. You brought me to search the origins of the semitic population of north Africa and yes, they came from Asia. I did not know that.
So, yes... African is a very good option. Thank you!
Well... our origin in the long range is actually always Africa, we owe this continent the existence of the human species... and semits are not antoher species, just another race / Ethnical group (two different species cannot reproduce, that#s part of its definition in taxonomy). But nevermind. African. Thanks!




tweakabelle -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:03:16 AM)

quote:

Still, can you tell me how it complies with the definition of "racism" of the Merrian Webster?


To be honest SMM, I don't know what the Webster definition of racism is. Nor am I going to look it up. I have a simple rule of thumb I go by and it is this:

Racism is anything that singles out any person or race or group of races according to a specific racial standard that is not applied to all races/everyone.

While it's almost always negative, it can be positive or negative or even neutral - as in certain health studies where it makes sense to hold racial data (skin cancer is one such area).

So where ever any one or any race(s) are singled out on the grounds of race - that's racism. I'm not going to get into a game of infinite application about it - that doesn't achieve anything. As a general rule, racism achieves nothing good at all, it is a divisive evil best removed from this planet. Worst of all racism is an expression of hate, and I loathe anything that leads to hatred.

So, using my rule of thumb above, do you qualify as a racist?






SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:04:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I don't see any attempt here to comprehend anything outside of the standard WASP mindset. None at all.
Core racism on display here.

Congratulations on being the first poster to throw an offensive sterotype at somebody.
K.

Funny. I am only partially W, and absolutely not A nor S nor P at all.



Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:08:56 AM)


We knew that, SMM. (OK, at least some of us)

Hence my pointing out that fact to the audience here, and Kirata's (as always, tasteful) 'snark' to my pointing it out.






SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:12:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
I think you need to work a little to understand how some of the posters, including me, have inferred a racist undertone to your post.

I am working on it. To understand it. You are right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
- But your willingness to even posit "Negro", "Nigger" or "Blackie" suggests...

Negro is a Spanish words, and I can swear you: in Spain is not an insult at all.
But the other two, I just quoted that they refer to the color, but are hardly acceptable for their use as insults. I explicitly mentioned that!

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
For example, I wouldn't even ask how comfy you'd be with "Dago", "Taco-boy" or "Tequila-monkey" as descriptors of your origin.

That's a good point. In my attempt of being complete, I may have been insensible. Point given.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
The linguistic glitch continues with your concern over the term "Caucasian" - It's meaning in Russia is fairly moot, as it has been used (albeit not in a very consistent way) in the context of describing ethnicity over a period of many years. As it happens, the term has fallen out of favour in recent years - being replaced with "European" or "White" on most official forms in the UK and the US.

And still it is how this very site forced me to identify myself.
And, promised... I do not come from the Caucasus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Colour is an imperfect way to define a person's enthicity

It is ok! I did nor propose only names with a color of skin, and I do not specially defend them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
"people of African descent"

Thank you very, very much for your proposal. Recently I have been proposed something similar, African, but with the same meaning (see above). I have my problems, which I already stated (we all come from Africa and so on) but seems to be the best option.

Best regards!



Edwynn -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:17:38 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Still, can you tell me how it complies with the definition of "racism" of the Merrian Webster?


To be honest SMM, I don't know what the Webster definition of racism is. Nor am I going to look it up. I have a simple rule of thumb I go by and it is this:

Racism is anything that singles out any person or race or group of races according to a specific racial standard that is not applied to all races/everyone.

While it's almost always negative, it can be positive or negative or even neutral - as in certain health studies where it makes sense to hold racial data (skin cancer is one such area).

So where ever any one or any race(s) are singled out on the grounds of race - that's racism. I'm not going to get into a game of infinite application about it - that doesn't achieve anything. As a general rule, racism achieves nothing good at all, it is a divisive evil best removed from this planet. Worst of all racism is an expression of hate, and I loathe anything that leads to hatred.

So, using my rule of thumb above, do you qualify as a racist?






I'm sorry tweakabelle, but you are seriously tripping over yourself here. Convenient application of narrowed ideals proposed as being displacement to 'infinite application about it' won't work, anymore than claiming that over 80% of the world population is filled with hate, as by your standard. Again, I am seeing core racism here.










SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:19:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Still, can you tell me how it complies with the definition of "racism" of the Merrian Webster?


To be honest SMM, I don't know what the Webster definition of racism is. Nor am I going to look it up. I have a simple rule of thumb I go by and it is this:

Racism is anything that singles out any person or race or group of races according to a specific racial standard that is not applied to all races/everyone.

While it's almost always negative, it can be positive or negative or even neutral - as in certain health studies where it makes sense to hold racial data (skin cancer is one such area).

So where ever any one or any race(s) are singled out on the grounds of race - that's racism. I'm not going to get into a game of infinite application about it - that doesn't achieve anything. As a general rule, racism achieves nothing good at all, it is a divisive evil best removed from this planet. Worst of all racism is an expression of hate, and I loathe anything that leads to hatred.

So, using my rule of thumb above, do you qualify as a racist?

Well, the definition of the MW is online available and quoted here, but I will try to go with you...

Ok, so... for you, to "single out any person or race or group of races according to a specific racial standard that is not applied to all races/everyone" can happen in certain health studies but it is still racism. I understand.

But I do not understand the term "standard" there... if I decide, for a specific study, to use the color of the skin in three groups and the form of the eyes to other two groups, I priorize both criteria and then divide... am i using one standard or two standards?

If I am using two standards, then in certain contexts (and only then) and situations, then yes, I would do what you call "being racist in a good way" (like in the health studies). Of course it is not what I call being racist, nor what the dictionary considers racism. And the rest of the time, I would not be racist according to your definition either, as I usually do not separate humans in races (makes no sense).

If in this case I am using only one standard, then no, I am never racist according to your definition.

Now please answer my question, and fill the line of...

"In the Dominican Republic, _____ are usually discriminated and have a hard time getting a job."

Thank you very much.



Kirata -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:24:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

To be honest SMM, I don't know what the Webster definition of racism is. Nor am I going to look it up. I have a simple rule of thumb I go by...

That's okay, as long as you warn people that you're not speaking English.
  • The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others ~American Heritage
  • A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race ~Merriam-Webster
  • Belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others ~Webster's
  • The belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race ~Cambridge
K.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:27:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie

1. Why are you asking this question?

It is a language issue, I would like how to call those people in a conversation, for example about Obama being the first ______ president of the USA.
It was also an issue about this site. There is a combo box ethnicity. I saw the scammers from Ghana write "African American" and I had to laugh, but then I realised that the site does not give them the option to be more accurate. That was the turning point where I decided to write the OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie
2. What have you internalized that you're --------with/about? Fill in the blanks.

I do not understand the question, I am sorry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie
3. Who do you see when you look in the mirror and what race and ethnicity is he really?

Many. I consider that the division of races makes only sense in a determinate context, and only for that context, and not in general. This is also what I am asking for - a definition for a context. But I already got one, African, which I really like.
To answer your questions completely: I see a Spaniard, that is, a typical Spanish / Portuguese mixture of Iberian, Celtic and Magreb population, with some drops of Arabian, Latin and Nordic. This, combined with some American Indian blood. With less granularity in the classification, I see a somehow darker white man. With even less, a white man (white for a human, that is, not for snow, as a big human is big for a human, and not for a mountain).

quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie
You have posed this discussion in several threads albeit different formats. It appears that race/ethnicity/color/skin tone resonates with you in a negative way.

This is not true. I posted a poll to substitute African American in the combo box as I saw profiles of African people having to write this, and I consider it inappropriate to force African people to describe themselves as African American even if they never stepped on America.
And that's all. Please post any of those other supposed threads or retire the assert. Thank you.

Best regards.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:33:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
  • The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others ~American Heritage
  • A belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race ~Merriam-Webster
  • Belief in or doctrine asserting racial differences in character, intelligence, etc. and the superiority of one race over another or others ~Webster's
  • The belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race ~Cambridge

I consider all of them horrendous beliefs. Stupid, anti-scientific, irrational and dangerous. For the case it helps.
"Race" makes for me only sense in specific contexts and its meaning depends on the context. And I am not even sure if it ever is a good idea to use this term... but I am unsure, which is not the same as "sure that not", so I asked.
African. I liked that term, moreover if I get any proof that the "clearer" population in the north of Africa are mostly recent immigrants. I am investigating this.



EmilyRocks -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:34:14 AM)

quote:

I'm a citizen of the country due to the necessary paperwork but my geneology only goes back so far here. Unless you're indigenous to this land going back prior to colonization, you're an immigrant with citizenship.
Immigrants are welcome, that's why we prefer to use the word "invaders".



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race and skin color. (10/4/2011 6:37:10 AM)

I APOLOGIZE

It does not happen often, so I write it in big letters :D .

I explicitly apologize for having included "Blackie? "boy"" in the list. I was just trying to be complete including all terms I have heard, but it was insensible from my side. I understand that sometimes even a question can be insulting ("Are you stupid!?"), but this was not my intention. Anyway - if I would edit the posting I would eliminate that option, as it is not really necessary to handle if these are adequate terms.

For the rest, I do not apologize. But for this, yes, it was an error.

Thanks to crazyml for making it clear with his example.



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