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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 6:09:45 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


In his speech to the "Take Back The American Dream" conference Monday, former Obama advisor Van Jones held up the "Occupy Wall Street" movement as an example of what progressives could do to force change.

"I'm not mad at [the tea party] for being so loud," he said. "I'm mad at us for being so quiet the last two years."

"Something just came across the news wire," Jones announced. "It's an extraordinary thing. We know we have the young folks and the struggling folks who are down there on Wall Street... They went down there to the scene of the crime against our future. They went down there and they have been camping in the rain. They've been beaten. They've been pepper-sprayed. They've been falsely arrested. And when they police were dragging them away, they said, We're out here, the 99 percent, we're fighting the one percent. You, officer, are part of the 99 percent. We're fighting for your pensions too. We're fighting for your pensions too.' This is a new movement."


If United States Marines aren't rank and file Americans, I don't know who is. Wish I was there to greet em.
   My Dad, rest his soul will be proud.



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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 6:17:47 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

If, IF, they really are Marines, they are in violation of the UCMJ.


No more than you are in violation of Darwin's Law... Whatever... The Marines I grew up around had enough character to understand when a fellow Marine acts with conviction doing just about anything non-violent.
Tell us all about how you live by the uniform code in your personal life and maybe we'll give a shit... THEY'RE COMING... nuff said



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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 6:24:19 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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The marines involved are all retired and are aware of the potential trouble they can get in.
quote:

“I’m no longer in active duty or in any way contractually indebted to the military. Nor are any of my friends that are joining me. To the officers’ of this thread: I’m aware of the potential, maybe inevitable trouble I can get in. So too are my friends. I don’t really care about the debate here, the upvotes, the downvotes or anything in here really. Mental masturbation is awesome and all. But fucking hell people get off reddit and do something about it. The decision is made. I just figured reddit to be a useful tool to get the attention of a good amount of veterans.”
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/more-veterans-on-the-way-to-occupy-wall-street.php

So it's just some ex-marines who are going to make a statement, and I get the impression that getting arrested is part of their plan.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 6:25:14 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Where do they say that a marine cannot wear hid dress blues with some friends and stand at a given place in manhattan and smile and wave at people?


It's bullshit... My dad attended a couple funerals of people who had a non-military connection to retired servicemen... Veteran's home nurses and the like. There wasn't justice code to govern those instances... And even if there were ... I believe we are at a "When in the course of human events..." moment anyway.



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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 6:39:06 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

The marines involved are all retired and are aware of the potential trouble they can get in.


That's the context of the example I gave...  My old man was a good 20 years past his ww2 service first time I saw him do it.
   I say fuck it.. they protect the people of the United States as well as defending the flag. And they have a say and deserve to be allowed to express one of the most significant reasons they care about the issue.
    What I wanna know Heather ... is when will the the Central Canadian  Extensive Lesbian's Front will March into Dewey Sq.... Which by the way is conveniently a 20 minute walk to "Anchovies", which is kind of the Veteran's Club for Lesbians.



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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 7:49:24 PM   
Fightdirecto


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As others have noted, from the pictures, the Marines were not in complete uniform. They may or may not be active duty Marines (as I have been told more than once by Marines - there is no such thing as a "former Marine" - once a Marine, you're a Marine for life).

If they are not active duty military there is very little the military justice system can do to them for wearing a partial military uniform. The military justice system tried to punish ex-military and civilians who had never been in the military for wearing pieces of a military uniform at anti-Viet-Nam War protests, and the Courts ruled against the military (citing the fact that anyone, military or civilian, can purchase parts of a military uniform at any Army-Navy surplus store).

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 7:54:19 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:


In his speech to the "Take Back The American Dream" conference Monday, former Obama advisor Van Jones held up the "Occupy Wall Street" movement as an example of what progressives could do to force change.

"I'm not mad at [the tea party] for being so loud," he said. "I'm mad at us for being so quiet the last two years."

"Something just came across the news wire," Jones announced. "It's an extraordinary thing. We know we have the young folks and the struggling folks who are down there on Wall Street... They went down there to the scene of the crime against our future. They went down there and they have been camping in the rain. They've been beaten. They've been pepper-sprayed. They've been falsely arrested. And when they police were dragging them away, they said, We're out here, the 99 percent, we're fighting the one percent. You, officer, are part of the 99 percent. We're fighting for your pensions too. We're fighting for your pensions too.' This is a new movement."


If United States Marines aren't rank and file Americans, I don't know who is. Wish I was there to greet em.
   My Dad, rest his soul will be proud.




Good thing he's got the Marines to be proud of.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 8:03:41 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Although, I have no knowledge of Fightdirects comments about Kerry supports who are retired, committing treason, and having their checks stopped.

As I clearly stated, this was the expressed opinion of some civilian Bush supporters during the 2004 elections, and I noted it as an example of a stupid, mis-informed and ridiculous stereotype accepted as gospel truth by some of the political Right, then and today.

Anyone who listens to Right-Wing media since the year 2000 has heard, more than once, commentators such as Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, G. Gordon Liddy, et. al. express their opinion that supporting Democratic Party politicians or Democratic Party polices is the equivilent of treason.






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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 8:14:40 PM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

What I wanna know Heather ... is when will the the Central Canadian Extensive Lesbian's Front will March into Dewey Sq
When Homeland Security decides Hanners isn't going to topple your government I guess. 

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 8:27:20 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


DODI 1344.01 DODI 1344.10 UCMJ Article 92

Paragraph 3.1.3 states that absent approval by a competent authority, members of the Armed Services (including retired members and members of Reserve components) are prohibited from wearing the uniform when "participating in activities such as unofficial public speeches, interviews, picket lines, marches, rallies or any public demonstration, which may imply Service sanction of the cause for which the demonstration or activity is conducted."


Explains why my Dad always said I wear the blues when they're warranted
Ya know what ... call the cops and dime em out if it makes you feel better...
Maybe they have a higher purpose...
Maybe they only read this one....

When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

   Take Our Declaration of Independence Quiz and Test Your Knowledge of America's Great Freedom Document

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
AdChoices

He has forbidden his governors to pass laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of representation in the legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved representative houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the legislative powers, incapable of annihilation, have returned to the people at large for their exercise; the state remaining in the meantime exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavored to prevent the population of these states; for that purpose obstructing the laws for naturalization of foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migration hither, and raising the conditions of new appropriations of lands.

He has obstructed the administration of justice, by refusing his assent to laws for establishing judiciary powers.

He has made judges dependent on his will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, standing armies without the consent of our legislature.

He has affected to render the military independent of and superior to civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his assent to their acts of pretended legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the inhabitants of these states:

For cutting off our trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing taxes on us without our consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of trial by jury:

For transporting us beyond seas to be tried for pretended offenses:

For abolishing the free system of English laws in a neighboring province, establishing therein an arbitrary government, and enlarging its boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule in these colonies:

For taking away our charters, abolishing our most valuable laws, and altering fundamentally the forms of our governments:

For suspending our own legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have we been wanting in attention to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, enemies in war, in peace friends.

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name, and by the authority of the good people of these colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that these united colonies are, and of right ought to be free and independent states; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and to do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.

New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton

Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samual Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry

Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery <<< distant relative

Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott

New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris

New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark

Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross

Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean

Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton

Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton

North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn

South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton

Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

Source: The Pennsylvania Packet, July 8, 1776


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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 8:31:06 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

If United States Marines aren't rank and file Americans, I don't know who is. Wish I was there to greet em.
My Dad, rest his soul will be proud.

Good thing he's got the Marines to be proud of.


He always said he was proud of the fact that I was always kind to the enfeebled and gave good advice to punks






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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 9:33:48 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

If United States Marines aren't rank and file Americans, I don't know who is. Wish I was there to greet em.
My Dad, rest his soul will be proud.

Good thing he's got the Marines to be proud of.


He always said he was proud of the fact that I was always kind to the enfeebled and gave good advice to punks



At least you were keeping it in the family.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 9:56:03 PM   
SternSkipper


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UCMJ stands for Uniform Code of Military Justice..  and it would appear that they could construe it as such (a vilolation) my feeling is they don't care... everybody keeps bring up the law and missing a HUGE point here. The central tool of this protest is a little but highly and historically accepted device called "Civil Disobedience" and really a protest shows no concise resolve without.
   The fact is EVERYBODY involved knows they may be called upon to be arrested and once it climbs into the 1000s the distinction between standing up and holding out your hands for the hand cuffs will be allegory.
    What's even funnier is that people are likening this to the Peace movement in the 60s or the labor movement of the early 20th century. And of course because of that error on everybody's part, they were met by police ready for that. It's not quite the same now. Boston cops have figured it out. What it really bears a resemblance to is the civil rights marches of the 60s. Not the issues, the mechanics. 


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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 9:57:20 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

At least you were keeping it in the family.


When's wheelchair basket ball season start?



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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 10:10:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

What it really bears a resemblance to is the civil rights marches of the 60s. Not the issues, the mechanics. 




Clear goals aren't part of the machinery?

(Dude. WTF with that analogy? That's almost as bad as Hank's foot in mouth)

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 10:56:08 PM   
joether


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From the many Tea Party rallies held ever since Mr. Obama become president, havent there been a bunch of active duty and reserve military troops in those crowds? It would be rather odd if no one from the military, that was actively serving to show up at such rallies. Be even more for them not to be noticed by which every Tea Party idiot that was giving a speech. If what this 'Occupy Wall Street' movement is in violation of the UCMJ, than why havent *ALL* the folks that were active duty or in the reserves been tried and found guilty for attending Tea Party rallies?

Likewise, I'm sure a few USMC folks have declared themselves a 'shield' that seperates police officers from (in this case) macing the civilians in a political rally. So why is anyone surprised that some are with the occupation folks? Just because you join the military doesnt mean you check your identity as a US Citizen at the metaphorical door. Yes, its generally a good idea to think on what one does, in the military before getting involved with political rallies, organizations, and businesses. There can be in cases, consequences to the actions and words while the uniform is worn. That's up to the individual soldier or sailor to think and decide on.

It is a very dangerous action for the military to 'pick a side' during an emotional political debate. Which is generally WHY the military stays out of political issues and INSTEAD handles the job of defending the country. And they do a VERY GOOD JOB of it.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/4/2011 10:59:03 PM   
luckydawg


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Joe can you cite any examples of it?

Being there in uniform, to impede law enforcement?

That would be a mighty big violation.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/5/2011 1:12:11 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Joe can you cite any examples of it?

Being there in uniform, to impede law enforcement?

That would be a mighty big violation.


You may have misunderstood me. Those who are active duty or in the reserves that have attended Tea Party rallies weren't there to impede law enforcement (just as those with this 'occupy wall street' crowd). But rather to show support for a political cause/group/organization they support.

My point is, not to bash the Tea Party rallies, or state US Service Personnel can not participate in political rallies; it is to point out they should take the utmost care in how they participate in these rallies. Both groups are understandably very passionate and tempers can fly out of control very quickly (more so with the Tea Party). It'll be important for those military folks not to resist the law enforcement in the area. Doing otherwise would not only causes problems to them and their command, but also creats a bad PR situtation that would remove the political message to something far more uglier. Doing stuff like this would undermine the military's credibility by the American population.

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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/5/2011 5:27:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Joe can you cite any examples of it?

Being there in uniform, to impede law enforcement?

That would be a mighty big violation.


Dawg, as I said in an earlier post here, they wouldn't be there to impede law enforcement.  Heck, they might just be hanging around talking to people and chatting up a pretty girl.  Their very presence would inhibit the VAST MINORITY but still significant numbert of law enforcement that likes to act like a bunch of adolescent thugs from doing so.
Bullies like low hanging fruit.  It doesn't matter if they are 6 years old or 60.  A bully isn't going to take on the baddest SOB on the block in a direct confrontation nor will he pick on the weak kid where that person can even see him.
In the hugely unlikely event that he is brought up on charges, he can truthfully say at the hearing "Yes Sir, I was at the edge of a crowd in lower Manhattan talking to a pretty girl"  If you're gonna convict a Marine for chatting up a pretty girl, we have definitely sunk too low.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 10/5/2011 5:30:02 AM >


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RE: Wall St. Protests - Send In The Marines! - 10/5/2011 9:32:15 AM   
luckydawg


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Joe, Hill.....

from the OP

"I’m heading up there tonight in my dress blues. So far, 15 of my fellow marine buddies are meeting me there, also in Uniform. I want to send the following message to Wall St and Congress:I didn’t fight for Wall St. I fought for America. Now it’s Congress’ turn.

we Veterans can act as first line of defense between the police and the protester. If they want to get to some protesters so they can mace them, they will have to get through the Fucking Marine Corps firstMy true hope, though, is that . Let’s see a cop mace a bunch of decorated war vets. I apologize now for typos and errors.

Typing this on iPhone whilst heading to NYC. We can organize once we’re there. That’s what we do best. If you see someone in uniform, gather together."



ex marines in thier uniforms impedeing law enforcement is the OP.

You guys can make up/project whatever you like....

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