RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 11:27:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. Firm

xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 12:33:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. Firm History shows that any political-economic system will eventually devolve into tyranny - if you allow it to.

Politesub53 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:27:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. Firm What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 7:45:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example. We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking. Firm

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 7:49:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example. We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking. Firm None of them were democracies, and the second was not even direct. If you open a thread on this I will be happy to participate. As it is, I have real problems. All this is off-topic.

tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 8:50:05 PM)
Yep.. real problems... I tend to agree.

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 12:02:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster None of them were democracies, and the second was not even direct. If you open a thread on this I will be happy to participate. As it is, I have real problems. All this is off-topic. Yeh but its firms thread. Anyway how about telling us what the "substantial" difference is between a republic and a democracy. I have yet to see anyone get it right, maybe you will be the first.

kdsub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 7:33:35 AM)
Lets have it RealOne...your opinion on the difference...For me the two words are interchangeable...A democracy can be direct or indirect representation of the majority where a Republic is indirect representation of the people through elected officials. Butch

xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 7:39:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy. History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. Firm What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example. Yep, they turn into feudal oligarchies, then they become tyrannical. I don't think there's ever been an example of a feudal system that wasn't tyrannical, such systems are typically based on patronage rather than merit, including Fascism, and the Soviet (which inherited it's structure and bureaucracy from the Czars, including the Gulags, secret police, etc.). I hate to tell ya firm, but some people just ain't never gonna be White enough for ya.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 7:52:44 AM)
The main problem with Firm Thesis was that he said "pure democracies". That implies an extraordinary high degree of democratic control. This excludes things like Athens (only male adult citizens, maybe a 5% of the population) or the Terror (the Convention was controlled by the minority of the Jacobines, and even that though representative democracy from a minority of the population - women did not able to vote, nor did many poor). I am still not ready to say that Firm won't ever find an example. It may well be. A direct transition between "direct democracy" and "tyranny" is possible though demagogy. But the real societies tend to be too complex for this transition. For example: Venezuela is a representative democracy, even with an Assembly and a Parliament. It is by no means a "pure democracy", even if it is an example about a democracy can turn an autocracy via demagogy, for lacking republican controlling systems. Would be perfect for Firm. But... pure democracy? Nope.

xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 9:20:23 AM)
It's dogma, doesnt' matter if it's true or not. But yes, Pure democracy is an ideal, like rational anarchy, it'll never happen because inequality is inherent, and any social system has conflict between demographics inherently built in: conflicts of ambition, division of labor, sex, age, etc. - the young and the old are a perpetual underclass in American culture, and they are distinct subcultures - some of those you can hypothetically erase or address, some you can't do anything about. What a constitutional republic does, is allow you to fight it out without spilling blood - I'd like to know exactly what FH thinks he could do about multiculturalism even if everybody agreed? "Re-education camps"? Sounds like the Red Chinese to me, we all gotta wear padded pajamas or what? How ethnic is "too ethnic"?

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 9:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Sounds like the Red Chinese to me, we all gotta wear padded pajamas or what? How ethnic is "too ethnic"? [image]http://www.friedenspaedagogik.de/var/corporate/storage/images/service/karikaturen_fuer_die_bildungsarbeit/auslaenderfeindigkeit_und_integrationsprobleme/du_dich_anpassen/2874-2-ger-DE/du_dich_anpassen.gif[/image] *- You. Must. Adapt. - And... whom of them?*

Politesub53 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 4:07:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example. We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking. Firm You seem to be changing your stance Firm. Your initial comment was that "pure democracy equals tyranny, which is why our (US) country was founded as a republic. The French revolution isnt the name the French gave it, it was known as a republic, hence the historical name "The First Republic" It was never a democracy, just as the USSR wasn`t and Rome wasn`t, all three were tyrannical AND republics. Athens was at one point a democracy, a political system that spread through the middle east region until democracies were destroyed by the Romans. One could argue that some Athenian rulers were tyrannical, but originally, that wasn`t the case. One could also argue that both the UK and the US are democracies, yet neither are tyrannical. The US and UK and most modern nations show that truly democratically elected governments are for the most part not tyrannical.

Politesub53 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 4:11:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Lets have it RealOne...your opinion on the difference...For me the two words are interchangeable...A democracy can be direct or indirect representation of the majority where a Republic is indirect representation of the people through elected officials. Butch Dont forget you dont have to be a republic to have the latter. The UK is a prime example.

MadAxeman -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 7:49:48 PM)
Instead of trying to come up with a concise definition that everyone can agree on (I failed obv) or getting bogged down in legalese, perhaps we could say democracy really occurs when the people can affect the way their country is run. Whether it's for the right or the left, each vote cast helps decide what type of government is elected. Once they're in, it can devolve into tyranny or chaos, but that would be because of the failure or corruption of the elected. It is not an inherent failure of the system. Every state in history can be demonstrably shown as flawed. If any had been perfect, that would be the universal model by now. History doesn't show that it can't work, it shows that systems are evolving. People across Asia, Africa and the Middle East see capitalism as an ideal state. Whether their most ardent concerns are the right to vote or simply enough food and clean water, they will soon have their say. With increased technology and communication, everybody's vote and opinion may be felt across the world before long. With resources becoming scarce, will the richer nations be resenting and resisting the development and freedoms that come to countries of greater populace? India and China are coming giants, already massive consumers and exporters. Russia still has accessible oil. The power shift has already begun. We are in a technological, ecological and social revolution. With the world's population bursting through 7 billion, a new form of global ideology may be necessary. Will this evolve through existing bodies like the UN or false wars seeking ever diminishing resources? What price democracy in a hothouse future? Discuss.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 8:09:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Discuss. Nope, sorry. [sm=offtopic2.gif] Please open a new thread.

tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 8:10:37 PM)
well we seem to have a new moderator.

MadAxeman -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 8:37:57 PM)
I'm not surprised that didn't fit under your hat.

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 9:24:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: MadAxeman Discuss. Nope, sorry. [sm=offtopic2.gif] Please open a new thread. get an alarm clock and wake up. threads have take on their own life so to speak, and are not a rigid iron clad affair. This must be the first board you were ever on

Real0ne -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/10/2011 9:27:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny. Which is why our country was founded as a republic. What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded. Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example. We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking. Firm You seem to be changing your stance Firm. Your initial comment was that "pure democracy equals tyranny, which is why our (US) country was founded as a republic. The French revolution isnt the name the French gave it, it was known as a republic, hence the historical name "The First Republic" It was never a democracy, just as the USSR wasn`t and Rome wasn`t, all three were tyrannical AND republics. Athens was at one point a democracy, a political system that spread through the middle east region until democracies were destroyed by the Romans. One could argue that some Athenian rulers were tyrannical, but originally, that wasn`t the case. *One could also argue that both the UK and the US are democracies, yet neither* are tyrannical. The US and UK and most modern nations show that truly democratically elected governments are for the most part not tyrannical. Its called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. ~Carlin**

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