RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 1:53:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

As long as. Exactly. Which was not the case in the first two millenia of existence of republics.
No, republic actually does not imply any vote from anybody, although this is strange and, you are right, in the Soviet Union they did vote. Was the Soviet Union a democracy? I would doubt it. Same for China (definitively a republic, a technocratic one).
And the implication, even if normal (you are right and point given, well structured modern republics tend to be democractic in some degree, at least in the western world) also works the other way around - well structured democracies tend to be republics in some degree.
What is more important, where should we put the focus on? Is better a democracy without republic or a republic without democracy? Interesting question, at least for me.
But the fact that Firm does not even mention the word "democracy" and chooses his focus this way, lets me think some things about his political demeanor. Not to you? Really? Honestly?




MadAxeman -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 2:52:27 AM)

I didn't say 'anybody' I said 'those qualified to vote'.
I am finding your continual nitpicking and semantic dissections a little more difficult to follow.
The Democratic Republic of North Korea bears little resemblance to a republic or a democracy.
There are myriad examples of states that have taken Democratic, Republic, Freedom, National, United or any combination as part of their title.
I thought this thread was going to be about ideas both social and political, specific to multiculturism. I don't feel qualified to chat about Native Americans and their sovereignty for example.
Here in Britain we have a multicultural society, with substantial Asian and black minorities. While much of their cultures have been naturally integrated (not without problems), we still have a government and opposition that is predominantly made up of white, expensively educated males.
A diverse populace is governed by a natural elite. Working class, non white, female or non heterosexual candidates are almost non existent or rolled out to prove an individual party is 'right on'.
Multiculturism will occur naturally in any state unless the individual cultures are kept separate.
The United States is unique in modern times in the way it has been populated through immigration. European nations over the centuries have had existing cultures affected by a new invading one, changing the language, technologies, religion and customs.
America seems to have it's own sense of identity, while retaining individual versions of source cultures. Italian Americans are not the same as Italians for example.
Being able to appreciate the food, music, clothes, language, dance et al of another culture within one society has to be healthy. That this comes with a competitive element of self interest on the part of some groups is only natural. Equality for all should be the goal. Until this is the case, some conflict is inevitable. The 'have not's' will rail against the machine. The 'haves' cling to whatever it is they 'have' and complain about a breakdown in society that was always evolving anyway. That's part of the human condition. We are as yet, still imperfect.
But thanks to implants, we're getting there.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 3:07:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

I didn't say 'anybody' I said 'those qualified to vote'.

Yes, I gave you right on that... and shown you the consequences. And other thoughts and questions you did not answer. We can leave it by that, I said my opinions on multiculturalism already here. Best regards.




MadAxeman -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 4:13:23 AM)

You want me to comment on Firm's political demeanor?
That's the only question I see in your previous post.
On the two streams raised he clearly suggests that muliculturism isn't working and reparations for past injustices are antiethical. I would have to hear his opinion on a variety of strands before feeling able to comment on his overall political stance.
This hardly seems relevant to considered debate.
If we're all in accordance with the same view, no discussion follows.
If someone espouses an opinion you disagree with, the opportunity is there to counter that view with a superior argument.
A republic inherently implies democracy.
The only qualification is who gets to make up the electorate.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:05:49 AM)

MadAxeman:

The "American ethos" was being described. In this description, Firm said "republic" but not "democracy". A republic is not always a democracy - far from it. Thus, the omission is relevant for me. Thus, I commented it.

If you do not consider it relevant because, under some circumstances (not specially common in the history of mankind) a republic is democratic, then it is up to you.

The expression "Water is always solid. Excepting under some circumstances of temperature and pressure." is factually correct, in the same sense your expression "A republic inherently implies democracy.  The only qualification is who gets to make up the electorate.". But both are misleading because those circumstances cannot be supposed - are not common enough in the most usual contextes to be supposed naturally. For example, in the first two thousand years of history of the republic, NONE of them was democratic in any acceptable degree according to the humanist standards.

Maybe you disqualify some countries as republics, even if they are according to the definition (both MW and OD), like China o Athens, or maybe you consider always a restricted context where the nr. of democracies is higher. Then, I understand you, but I simply would not suppose that context, nor in my posting, nor in Firm's one.

As all this conversation is out of context, I stop it here. Please open a new thread if you want to continue. Thank you.




crazyml -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:27:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

all i can say about this is that when the shit hits the fan, Americans are Americans first. Its become an American or get out. You are with us or against us.. Now that can be a positive thing in times of crisis,.. but can be negative as far as the concept of multicuturalism goes..



Here's the thing... I don't think there needs to be any conflict between multiculturalism and "becoming an American". I think that if you want to be a citizen of America (or the UK, or France...) you have to be willing to commit to the essential values that are associated with that nation. You should be free to bring anything to the melting pot after that - but at the same time, if you want the privileges of citizenship you have to be willing to deliver on your responsibilities - not just when the shit hits the fan, but all of the time.





SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:30:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
I think that if you want to be a citizen of America (or the UK, or France...) you have to be willing to commit to the essential values that are associated with that nation.

I would like to say "hurrah" but substituting "nation" by "constitution". It is more concrete, less subjective.




crazyml -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:36:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
I think that if you want to be a citizen of America (or the UK, or France...) you have to be willing to commit to the essential values that are associated with that nation.

I would like to say "hurrah" but substituting "nation" by "constitution". It is more concrete, less subjective.



That seems fair to me, provided that you belong to a nation that is lucky enough to have an actual "constitution" ;-)




DeviantlyD -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:39:04 AM)

Hey ml, ever notice how when smm doesn't have a good response, he sidetracks by bringing up another issue entirely? Kind of like the ole' bait and switch tactic. ;)




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 5:54:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
That seems fair to me, provided that you belong to a nation that is lucky enough to have an actual "constitution" ;-)

Well... I am actually pretty unsure about what is a "nation", that for the start. But I do now want to be loyal to a body politic which has none, that for sure. Point given.
Have you read Habermas?




StrangerThan -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 6:02:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

You see I live in the Southwest, which was long settled by the Spanish while the Puritans were still whining that they were being persecuted for being "different" by their fellow Europeans.

Some things never change apparently, but being an American means I don't have to eat grits and you don't have to eat Carne Adovada - I've had both, and it's your loss, c'est la vie.



Sounds like someone has a problem with the South.

I grew up there. I've also spent considerable time in the southwest. If you want to consider California and Texas a part of the southwest, I've also lived there for a few years. If you don't want to count those, about about New Mexico and Arizona? Can't say I've lived there but worked in both for months.

The Spanish weren't there first - just a historical note. "Settling" is mostly another term for uprooting, converting, enslaving and killing the population that was already there, so it's not a matter of who came first. It's mostly a matter of who lost which war, and the Spanish have been losers for most of US history. Don't take that as an insult. Most of the expansionist crowd from Europe have done little except contract in the last few hundred years.

I'll admit the food is good though. Here's my plug for Garcia's Kitchen in downtown Albuquerque. And just an fyi as well, grits are certainly identified with the south, but originated with Native Americans - probably not the same group the Spanish were settling, but you know, the one's who were actually there first.

As far as item 1, that being rule of law vs rule of a man, I'm not sure I follow you where rule of law as a concept has anything to do with anyone's sexuality. I get and understand that law can be adopted to do just that. In fact, that manipulation of law to achieve social structure is the real issue as I see it, and isn't so much related to multiculturalism as it is political stances. Both sides, i.e. left and right use law and the election process as a way of forcing the other side to bow to their ideals. The election process is a two pronged attack in that it ensures legislation agreeable to the winner's beliefs and helps seed the high court in order to keep that legislation legal.

As a overarching concept however, the only way a nation can be both functional and fair to its citizens is through rule of law.

Item 4's "general consensus of morality" is something I see as common sense stuff, covering ground that most everyone views as wrong, most of which violate law. I really don't get your objection to that line given that a general consensus of morality is used all the time to stand against items that go beyond the law's ability to prosecute. Somewhere along the line of having free speech and having a common set of laws that address issues we all agree are wrong, means there is ground where religion or belief's must obey a general consensus of morality or suffer either through the legal process or social pressure. I'm really not understanding your point.

As far as item 3, by your definition our government in the US hasn't been legitimate for at least a couple of decades. Shrug. You can take that for what its worth but if more and more protestors take to the streets, I'm wondering if Obama will stand by the words he used for Gaddafi, that being a leader needs to step down when social protests show he has lost the legitimacy to lead. What I think we may very well see is much of what occurred, and is occurring in the Middle East, that being the use of police to control and put down demonstrations if they grow too strong. No government likes to give up power, even when its people have had enough of it.

As far as the original idea of turning into another version of Yugoslavia, I think we're almost there now. I don't think it is multiculturalism that has driven it however, unless you want to assign different cultures to the left and right ends of the political spectrum. I don't think we need religion or someone else's culture to be divisive. We've managed that already.






JstAnotherSub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 6:25:48 AM)

After thinking about this for a while, I came up with this.

The best thing for multi culturism is for different cultures to be able to live together and keep their traditions and languages alive.

The worst thing for multi culturism is for different cultures to be able to live together and keep their traditions and languages alive.

I have often heard about the different neighborhoods in New York, where it is like taking a tour of many different countries if you visit them.  If we could do that nationwide, it would be wonderful, IMHO.

Thing is, many see keeping separate neighborhoods as a bad thing.

In other words, I got nothing! 




xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 6:37:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

As long as. Exactly. Which was not the case in the first two millenia of existence of republics.
No, republic actually does not imply any vote from anybody, although this is strange and, you are right, in the Soviet Union they did vote. Was the Soviet Union a democracy? I would doubt it. Same for China (definitively a republic, a technocratic one).
And the implication, even if normal (you are right and point given, well structured modern republics tend to be democractic in some degree, at least in the western world) also works the other way around - well structured democracies tend to be republics in some degree.
What is more important, where should we put the focus on? Is better a democracy without republic or a republic without democracy? Interesting question, at least for me.
But the fact that Firm does not even mention the word "democracy" and chooses his focus this way, lets me think some things about his political demeanor. Not to you? Really? Honestly?

Fear of the mob is deeply ingrained in right wing philosophy, they cling to a lot of variations of quaint 19th century notions like the White Mans Burden.

When it suits them of course, when not, then it's democracy meaning "majority rules", and they have no problems with mobs when they are the mob.

In fact, what we have in theory is a constitutional representative republic, no majority is enough to override the constitution, the mechanism designed to protect this is the balance of powers, that make it less likely that any one minority can control all three branches of government simultaneously.

If they did, and the result was oppressive, see the Declaration of Independence.





xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 6:40:13 AM)

RO? I dunno what to tell you, nothings' perfect, what it is is a dynamic system capable of change and adaptation - the salient feature of feudal systems is that they are static, sclerotic, and zero sum.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 6:46:39 AM)

Thank you for your message, xssve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Fear of the mob is deeply ingrained in right wing philosophy,

I see you got the same impressions as me at least in one point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
what we have (...) no majority is enough to override the constitution,

What "you" have... checking profile, checking profile... USA. Ok. Sorry, I am from Spain (constitutional, democratic republic with a monarch) and live in Germany (constitutionally democratic republic with a chancelloress).

Ok. In the USA, no majority... hummm... please correct me if I am wrong. I have checked the wiki and read a bit. But if you have a majority which elects 2/3 of the Congress and 3/4 of the states, then you can ammend the constitution, including the deletion of old text. And the Supreme Court cannot prevent it, as only laws below the constituion can be analysed by them as "constitutional" (any ammendment is anti-constitutional, I guess, but this is not a reason to rebuff them). The Court has no power to prevent it. And even if it HAD, the Court is elected indirectly. So... if a sustained majority would like to do something and they remain on their will for years... they can do anything. Even dismantle the republican system. Even contradict the declartion of independence (and IMHO it has been contradicted already). No legal power can stop them.

That is... also the USA, is more a democracy as a republic. The republic cannot dismantle the democracy: no minority can get enough power to destroy or limit the voting system and rise the power legally. But the democracy can dismantle the republic.

Or am I wrong? I do not pretend to be a lawyer, the less in US-right.

Best regards.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 7:42:16 AM)

Sounds about right to me SMM.

edited to add:  However a "minority" can destroy the system by controlling the judiciary and simply redefining what the terms all mean.

Firm




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 7:47:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Sounds about right to me SMM.

edited to add:  However a "minority" can destroy the system by controlling the judiciary and simply redefining what the terms all mean.

Firm

Well, how can the minority control the judiciary?
I am not speaking about conspiracies, plesase. Using conspiracy anybody can do anything theorically, but if a minority of the population wants something and for that, want to control the judiciary ro achive it, how can they do this openly and legally?

Edited to add:
After thinking about it I came to the answer "convincing the judges". It is an interesting answer, but actually it is not anti-democratic, as democracy can be representative or direct. In this case, democratically elected judges would decide to take an unpopular decision by belief. This is not anti-democratic, this is normal representative democracy. It would only be anti-democratic if the minority can *choose* those judges to do that, against the will of the majority. How?
"Convincing the president and the Congress" is not an anti-democratic answer for the same reason. So... in a "total war" between a minority who believes something and the rest believing the opposite, there is no way the minority can overrun the majority. And in the contrary, the majority can overrun the minority.
Still - democracy seems to have the control, even over the republican system.
Is there some error in my analysis?




xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 8:00:51 AM)

As I say it is an imperfect world, and none of the scenarios you present are strictly speaking, impossible - but the US system is designed from the ground up on the observation that all political power ultimately derives from the consent of the governed: from the DoI:

quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.


This is not just a political construct, it's an evolutionary fact: it works no different among a troop of Chimpanzees, or Baboons, or a herd of Elk, all organisms are essentially independent, we group togehther nad cooperae for the sake of mutual survival, "group fitness", which is essentially a vehicle, like a bus, we're all riding on - somebody has to drive, but if the driver is blind or mad, there is nothing that says we can't get off that bus and catch the next one.

There is no other politicla authority other than the constitution, all political office, and all related political power is derived from the constitution, so nullify the constitution, and there is no such thing as revolt against proper authority, because proper authority, derived solely from the constitution, no longer exists - kind of a catch 22 there.

Thus, as a hypothetical, if say Romney were elected and attempted to establish a theocratic regime, it would violate a fundamental constitutional principle, and effectively abrogate his authority as president, derived from that constitution, and could be removed by whatever means necessary and nobody could call that insurrection, because it's a nation governed by law, not individual whim, no matter how popular it is.

At best, it would be a new regime, dependent on how much force could be mustered to defend it - in such regimes, their power derives from violence, but it's still consensus, i.e., a minority consensus has to be able to muster enough force, through consensus - though that can mean hiring mercenaries - to suppress any attempt to dislodge it. Not at all uncommon, we call those dictatorships, juntas, etc, Saddam Hussein, etc., but they tend to be unstable, and often end themselves in violence.

Not too many of the Roman Emperors died natural deaths, and most such rulers, as a practical matter, have only lasted to the extent they made social justice a priority - since, in a system of haves and have nots, the have nots are always going to numerically outnumber the haves, and ultimately form the broadest consensus - the French revolution, the American revolution, the Libyan revolution, etc., there is an evolutionary algorithm at work here.




xssve -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 8:11:09 AM)

In spite of the words "endowed by their creator", the signers of the DoI and the framers of the constitution, understood that rights themselves can derive in theory from any damnfool thing, but that rights in praxis must be secured through human action - rights are only rights if you can exercise them, even down to your right to walk down the street unmolested - they are granted by consensus: by others recognition of your right to walk down the street unmolested, which they grant you in praxis by not molesting you, and they are guaranteed by force: recognition of your right to defend yourself, and state applied force if this proves insufficient, which can be and is applied ex post facto, even if you successfully defend yourself, because in principle, if the rights of one are violated without reprisal, the rights of all are equally insecure.

In recognizing and enforcing your rights, I am in principle and effect, defending my own.

Hence, rights period, derive from consensus, period - otherwise, it defaults to arbitrary force alone, which is not right, but force, and at that point the bus is broken.




SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/9/2011 8:18:18 AM)

Dear xssve: You are saying too many things. :) For this thread, which is not about that. I do not dare to enter on them.
But you are not saying that the majority cannot legally change or dismantle the republican system, or that the minority can dismantle democracy, so I guess this point is cleared.
For a deeper analysis I would pledge you to establish a "Thesis" and open a new thread. Thank you.




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