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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 11:27:30 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.

Firm


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 12:33:27 PM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.

Firm

History shows that any political-economic system will eventually devolve into tyranny - if you allow it to.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 5:27:43 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.

Firm




What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 7:45:12 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.


What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 7:49:11 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.


What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking.

Firm


None of them were democracies, and the second was not even direct.
If you open a thread on this I will be happy to participate. As it is, I have real problems. All this is off-topic.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/9/2011 8:50:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Yep.. real problems... I tend to agree.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 12:02:18 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

None of them were democracies, and the second was not even direct.
If you open a thread on this I will be happy to participate. As it is, I have real problems. All this is off-topic.




Yeh but its firms thread.

Anyway how about telling us what the "substantial" difference is between a republic and a democracy.

I have yet to see anyone get it right, maybe you will be the first.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/10/2011 12:03:20 AM >

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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 7:33:35 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Lets have it RealOne...your opinion on the difference...For me the two words are interchangeable...A democracy can be direct or indirect representation of the majority where a Republic is indirect representation of the people through elected officials.

Butch

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Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 7:39:04 AM   
xssve


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Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

The very term 'Republic' suggests a level of democracy because the government is elected by those qualified to vote. As long as the common people (rather than an elite) retain the right to vote, you get democracy.

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.

Firm




What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.
Yep, they turn into feudal oligarchies, then they become tyrannical.

I don't think there's ever been an example of a feudal system that wasn't tyrannical, such systems are typically based on patronage rather than merit, including Fascism, and the Soviet (which inherited it's structure and bureaucracy from the Czars, including the Gulags, secret police, etc.).

I hate to tell ya firm, but some people just ain't never gonna be White enough for ya.

< Message edited by xssve -- 10/10/2011 7:40:42 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 7:52:44 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		The main problem with Firm Thesis was that he said "pure democracies". That implies an extraordinary high degree of democratic control.

This excludes things like Athens (only male adult citizens, maybe a 5% of the population) or the Terror (the Convention was controlled by the minority of the Jacobines, and even that though representative democracy from a minority of the population - women did not able to vote, nor did many poor).

I am still not ready to say that Firm won't ever find an example. It may well be. A direct transition between "direct democracy" and "tyranny" is possible though demagogy. But the real societies tend to be too complex for this transition. For example: Venezuela is a representative democracy, even with an Assembly and a Parliament. It is by no means a "pure democracy", even if it is an example about a democracy can turn an autocracy via demagogy, for lacking republican controlling systems.

Would be perfect for Firm. But... pure democracy? Nope.

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 9:20:23 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		It's dogma, doesnt' matter if it's true or not.

But yes, Pure democracy is an ideal, like rational anarchy, it'll never happen because inequality is inherent, and any social system has conflict between demographics inherently built in: conflicts of ambition, division of labor, sex, age, etc. - the young and the old are a perpetual underclass in American culture, and they are distinct subcultures - some of those you can hypothetically erase or address, some you can't do anything about.

What a constitutional republic does, is allow you to fight it out without spilling blood - I'd like to know exactly what FH thinks he could do about multiculturalism even if everybody agreed? "Re-education camps"?

Sounds like the Red Chinese to me, we all gotta wear padded pajamas or what? How ethnic is "too ethnic"?

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 9:31:05 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Sounds like the Red Chinese to me, we all gotta wear padded pajamas or what? How ethnic is "too ethnic"?




- You. Must. Adapt.                            - And... whom of them?

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/10/2011 9:32:43 AM >

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 4:07:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.


What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking.

Firm



You seem to be changing your stance Firm. Your initial comment was that "pure democracy equals tyranny, which is why our (US) country was founded as a republic.

The French revolution isnt the name the French gave it, it was known as a republic, hence the historical name "The First Republic" It was never a democracy, just as the USSR wasn`t and Rome wasn`t, all three were tyrannical AND republics.

Athens was at one point a democracy, a political system that spread through the middle east region until democracies were destroyed by the Romans. One could argue that some Athenian rulers were tyrannical, but originally, that wasn`t the case. One could also argue that both the UK and the US are democracies, yet neither are tyrannical. The US and UK and most modern nations show that truly democratically elected governments are for the most part not tyrannical.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 4:11:19 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Lets have it RealOne...your opinion on the difference...For me the two words are interchangeable...A democracy can be direct or indirect representation of the majority where a Republic is indirect representation of the people through elected officials.

Butch



Dont forget you dont have to be a republic to have the latter. The UK is a prime example.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 7:49:48 PM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		Instead of trying to come up with a concise definition that everyone can agree on (I failed obv) or getting bogged down in legalese, perhaps we could say democracy really occurs when the people can affect the way their country is run. Whether it's for the right or the left, each vote cast helps decide what type of government is elected. Once they're in, it can devolve into tyranny or chaos, but that would be because of the failure or corruption of the elected.
It is not an inherent failure of the system.
Every state in history can be demonstrably shown as flawed. If any had been perfect, that would be the universal model by now.
History doesn't show that it can't work, it shows that systems are evolving.

People across Asia, Africa and the Middle East see capitalism as an ideal state. Whether their most ardent concerns are the right to vote or simply enough food and clean water, they will soon have their say. With increased technology and communication, everybody's vote and opinion may be felt across the world before long. With resources becoming scarce, will the richer nations be resenting and resisting the development and freedoms that come to countries of greater populace? India and China are coming giants, already massive consumers and exporters. Russia still has accessible oil. The power shift has already begun. We are in a technological, ecological and social revolution. With the world's population bursting through 7 billion, a new form of global ideology may be necessary. Will this evolve through existing bodies like the UN or false wars seeking ever diminishing resources?
What price democracy in a hothouse future?

Discuss.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 8:09:10 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Discuss.

Nope, sorry.

Please open a new thread.

(in reply to MadAxeman)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 8:10:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		well we seem to have a new moderator.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 8:37:57 PM   
MadAxeman


Posts: 4171
Joined: 8/28/2008
From: UK
Status: offline 		I'm not surprised that didn't fit under your hat.

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 9:24:52 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
Discuss.

Nope, sorry.

Please open a new thread.



get an alarm clock and wake up.

threads have take on their own life so to speak, and are not a rigid iron clad affair.

This must be the first board you were ever on


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/10/2011 9:27:53 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

History has shown repeatedly that "pure democracy" equals tyranny.

Which is why our country was founded as a republic.


What, like the Soviet Republic, or the French Republic ? or the myriad of tyrannical republics history has recorded.

Care to show an example of a true democracy that has been tyrannical ? I dont mean anyone using the title democracy either, just one true example.

We can start with Athens and come up to the French Revolution without much looking.

Firm



You seem to be changing your stance Firm. Your initial comment was that "pure democracy equals tyranny, which is why our (US) country was founded as a republic.

The French revolution isnt the name the French gave it, it was known as a republic, hence the historical name "The First Republic" It was never a democracy, just as the USSR wasn`t and Rome wasn`t, all three were tyrannical AND republics.

Athens was at one point a democracy, a political system that spread through the middle east region until democracies were destroyed by the Romans. One could argue that some Athenian rulers were tyrannical, but originally, that wasn`t the case. One could also argue that both the UK and the US are democracies, yet neither are tyrannical. The US and UK and most modern nations show that truly democratically elected governments are for the most part not tyrannical.



Its called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. ~Carlin


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 240
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