RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II

RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 8:59:03 PM)
quote: Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here. I see nothing wrong with keeping language and traditions alive within cultural groups as long as they don't become isolated because of language and tradition. I think you will find it is impossible for a relatively small cultural group to maintain exclusive language and traditions over multiple generations within a larger group or groups. New generations tend to blend in and soon become part of the whole even if the old generation objects… This is the way it has been in America and I see no reason this should change. Butch

luckydawg -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:10:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Native Americans are different in this country than any other group... why? Sovereign nation. Unlike any other group, as a race, they were and still are granted special considerations by the government. AFAIK they are the only group to ever have been treated as such. The only group as a race made promises by the government, had them broken, made new promises, had them broken. Whether anyone wants to admit it, recognize it or accept it... thats the crux of the difference. Its two nations within one. This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska). As far as the OP, we absolutley benefit by having the cream of the world come here and join our country. And the diverse cultures that are part of America (and have been from day one) are a great benefit, despite sometimes causing problems. Btu I do think everyone should adhere to some "WASP" type values. The ideals of Human Rights and a Democratic Republic for example. If folks want to live differently they are free to leave. And I agree with you Tazzy, that having a common language is of utmost importance. And English seems to be doing just fine.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:11:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here. Many had the same problem. He explained later on: quote: For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced: by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.

kdsub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:24:09 PM)
Yes I did see his explanation but i am still not sure what he means...Is he saying his view on multiculturalism is something new or something that has been here from the beginning? Butch

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:33:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Yes I did see his explanation but i am still not sure what he means...Is he saying his view on multiculturalism is something new or something that has been here from the beginning? Butch I think the question should be better answered by him. But I do not think that this is the point... the point would be if multi-culturalism, as he sees it, is positive or not. Not about the originality of his views.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:36:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society Even after you explained more I am still not sure what you mean here. I see nothing wrong with keeping language and traditions alive within cultural groups as long as they don't become isolated because of language and tradition. I think you will find it is impossible for a relatively small cultural group to maintain exclusive language and traditions over multiple generations within a larger group or groups. New generations tend to blend in and soon become part of the whole even if the old generation objects… This is the way it has been in America and I see no reason this should change. Butch The problem is that there is resistance to new generations assimilating, unlike the past when it was encouraged.

tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:37:36 PM)
quote: This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska). http://www.namsinc.org/pdf/Soverign%20nation%20white%20paper%202.pdf Every year the Bureau of Indian Affairs publishes a list of federally recognized tribes. This list is regularly updated, as more tribes complete the process of being federally recognized as a sovereign nation. These include American Indian tribes in the lower 48 states and villages in Alaska. Native Hawaiians and Samoans, as well some of the people living in Pacific protectorates, have many of the same rights as tribes. Even in the case of tribes who are not federally recognized, there are often cases where similar rights and case law apply

Hillwilliam -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:37:58 PM)
Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country. There are areas where it is happening as we speak. Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:44:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country. There are areas where it is happening as we speak. Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"? Yup, its the last line in "Hey You" (well, with united replaced with together) (BTW, youre agreeing with me too much lately....be careful with that!)

kdsub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:46:48 PM)
But you see his explanation of what multiculturalism is to him will guide my answer... As an example if he is using multiculturalism to describe how past migrations of immigrants have been assimilated that is one thing...but if he is describing some new concept that is another. To say the multiculturalism of the past is a failure is to say the country as it is today is a failure and I just want to know if this is what he is saying. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:49:10 PM)
quote: The problem is that there is resistance to new generations assimilating, unlike the past when it was encouraged This has always been the case...nothing new...you just can't stop new generations from changing no matter where the resistance to change comes from Butch

Hillwilliam -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Multiculturalism as it is practiced in a lot of places today can lead to an almost "Balkanization" of this country. There are areas where it is happening as we speak. Does anyone remember "United we stand, Divided we fall"? Yup, its the last line in "Hey You" (well, with united replaced with together) (BTW, youre agreeing with me too much lately....be careful with that!) Yeah, I noticed. I'll try not to make a habit of it OK? You DO realize, though, that means you also agree with Me. [8D]

luckydawg -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 9:58:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: This isn't quite right. Native americans are not A sovereign nation, there are over a hundred distinct Indian and Inupiak nations. Each of which has a seperate deal with the Federal Government. A Native American gets nothing special from the Government, unless they are an enrolled member of a tribe(or Native Corparatioin, as in Alaska). http://www.namsinc.org/pdf/Soverign%20nation%20white%20paper%202.pdf Every year the Bureau of Indian Affairs publishes a list of federally recognized tribes. This list is regularly updated, as more tribes complete the process of being federally recognized as a sovereign nation. These include American Indian tribes in the lower 48 states and villages in Alaska. Native Hawaiians and Samoans, as well some of the people living in Pacific protectorates, have many of the same rights as tribes. Even in the case of tribes who are not federally recognized, there are often cases where similar rights and case law apply The tribes get recognized as a soverein, each one. Its not "two nations in one"(as you said). It is over 100 native nations, (each with a different deal) in one. The "special" (treaty) rights go to tribes(or whatever term is used). Just like the quote you posted said. Which agrees with me.

tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:26:59 PM)
And this changes the fact how? They are still a sovereign nation... the only race granted that right by our government. Which was, and is, my assertion.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:37:01 PM)
Does somebody here, besides me, use Habermas' constitutional patriotism as a guide? I think it helps. Cultural characteristics are ok and maybe an enrichment, as long as they do not hit against the core principles of the Constitution.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:45:25 PM)
Something I just came up with. People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody; or that they have the "right" to claim for reparation for something done to their ancestors, are using... birthrights. Privileges. I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being. The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong.

Termyn8or -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:49:07 PM)
Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well. Fcact of life. Sorry. T^T

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:50:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well. Fcact of life. Sorry. T^T For breaking which guideline of the forums? Honestly asking here. I am curious.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:52:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster Something I just came up with. People who say that they have "rights" over a land because they are descendants of somebody; or that they have the "right" to claim for reparation for something done to their ancestors, are using... birthrights. Privileges. I thought that we eliminated those in the French Revolution, some time ago. No individual should be born with different rights as any other invidual. Birthrights are simply wrong. You are you - period. With the same rights as any other human being. The sentence "you should give me back the land of my ancestors" is not only wrong because that logic would bring endless conflicts, it is wrong because it supposes that the fact of being born by somebody gives you rights to possess something. And this is wrong. That's why I mentioned in the earlier thread that my family came out of Germany in 1740 one step ahead of the headsman after a political upheaval. I have a feeling I'd play hell going over there now, hiring a lawyer and demanding my share of the old family estates eh?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/4/2011 10:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Firm, my opinions would get this MF locked or removed as well. Fcact of life. Sorry. T^T For breaking which guideline of the forums? Honestly asking here. I am curious. Name one and termy will break it LOL

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