RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 12:56:00 PM)

I think states are trying to gains some soveriegnty thru legislatures and ---- and treaties with the feds? yup.

trea·ty   /ˈtriti/ Show Spelled[tree-tee] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties.
1. a formal agreement between two or more states in reference to peace, alliance, commerce, or other international relations.
2. the formal document embodying such an international agreement.
3. any agreement or compact.


States and local governments have occasionally attempted to assert exemption from various federal regulations, especially in the areas of labor and environmental controls, using the Tenth Amendment as a basis for their claim. An often-repeated quote, from United States v. Darby, 312 U.S. 100, 124 (1941), reads as follows:

The amendment states but a truism that all is retained which has not been surrendered. There is nothing in the history of its adoption to suggest that it was more than declaratory of the relationship between the national and state governments as it had been established by the Constitution before the amendment or that its purpose was other than to allay fears that the new national government might seek to exercise powers not granted, and that the states might not be able to exercise fully their reserved powers.....

The tenth amendment is also known as the 'States Sovereignty Amendment'.

http://www.sweetliberty.org/tenthamend.htm


So, in the real world, yes.........



popeye1250 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 12:57:28 PM)

As Dr. Michael Savage said "the lefties want to protest everything in the country but then,.....want to re-elect Obama."
"What do we want!?"
"We don't know!"
When do we want it?"
"Now!"



luckydawg -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 12:59:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


I think states are trying to gains some soveriegnty thru legislatures and ---- and treaties with the feds? yup.




Mnot often concedes by writing silly nonsense like this. It doesn't mean anything, its just non grammatical jibberish.

So back to the actuall topic.....



mnottertail -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 12:59:47 PM)

Yeah, another fuckin simpleton who makes these cute but vacuous pronouncements, this dipshit Savage, one dead brain cell away from Rush or another Republican icon like Reagan.



mnottertail -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:02:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


I think states are trying to gains some soveriegnty thru legislatures and ---- and treaties with the feds? yup.




Mnot often concedes by writing silly nonsense like this. It doesn't mean anything, its just non grammatical jibberish.

So back to the actuall topic.....



I answered your ignominious ineptitudes with fact and you found yourself once again intellectually embarrassed. No big deal, that. Yes, lets move on.




popeye1250 -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:02:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, another fuckin simpleton who makes these cute but vacuous pronouncements, this dipshit Savage, one dead brain cell away from Rush or another Republican icon like Reagan.


"Cute?" Not "beligerent" and "bellicose?"



tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:05:27 PM)

Tribes requiring 1/2 degree blood quantum for membership

(equivalent to one parent)
Kialegee Tribal Town[26]
Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida
Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, Mississippi
St. Croix Chippewa Indians of Wisconsin
White Mountain Apache Tribe, Arizona
Yomba Shoshone Tribe, Utah[28]

[edit]Tribes requiring 1/4 degree blood quantum for membership

(equivalent to one grandparent)
Absentee-Shawnee Tribe of Indians[26]
Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes[26]
Confederated Tribes and Bands of the Yakama Nation, Washington
Kickapoo Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Navajo Nation, Arizona, Utah and New Mexico
Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation, Arizona
Fort Peck Assiniboine and Sioux Tribes, Montana
Navajo Nation
Oneida Tribe of Indians, Wisconsin
Pascua Yaqui Tribe, Arizona
Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation, Kansas[29]
Shoshone Tribe of the Wind River Reservation, Wyoming[30]
Standing Rock Sioux Tribe, North and South Dakota
United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians, Oklahoma[26]
Utu Utu Gwaitu Paiute Tribe, California[31]
Yavapai-Prescott Tribe, Arizona

[edit]Tribes requiring 1/8 degree blood quantum for membership

(equivalent to one great-grandparent)
Apache Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Comanche Nation, Oklahoma[26]
Delaware Nation, Oklahoma[26]
Confederated Tribes of the Siletz Reservation, Oregon
Fort Sill Apache Tribe of Oklahoma
Karuk Tribe of California
Muckleshoot Indian Tribe of the Muckleshoot Reservation, Washington
Northwestern Band of Shoshoni Nation of Utah (Washakie)
Otoe-Missouria Tribe of Indians, Oklahoma[32]
Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma[26]
Ponca Nation, Oklahoma[26]
Sac and Fox Nation, Oklahoma[26]
Sac & Fox Nation of Missouri in Kansas and Nebraska
Squaxin Island Tribe of the Squaxin Island Reservation, Washington
Suquamish Indian Tribe of the Port Madison Reservation, Washington
Three Affiliated Tribes of the Fort Berthold Reservation
Upper Skagit Indian Tribe of Washington
Wichita and Affiliated Tribes (Wichita, Keechi, Waco and Tawakonie)[26]

[edit]Tribes requiring 1/16 degree blood quantum for membership
(equivalent to one great-great-grandparent)

Caddo Nation[26]
Confederated Tribes of the Grand Ronde Community of Oregon
Fort Sill Apache Tribe[26]
Iowa Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Sac and Fox Nation, Oklahoma
Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, North Carolina
Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians

[edit]Tribes determining membership by lineal descent

These tribes do not have a minimum blood quantum requirement; however, this does not mean anyone with any amount of Indian blood can enroll. Members must be direct descendants of original enrollees.
Alabama-Quassarte Tribal Town[26]
Cherokee Nation[26]
Chickasaw Nation[26]
Choctaw Nation[26]
Citizen Potawatomi Nation[26]
Delaware Tribe of Indians[26]
Eastern Shawnee Tribe[26]
Kaw Nation[26]
Mashantucket Pequot Tribe of Connecticut[33]
Miami Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Modoc Tribe[26]
Muscogee Creek Nation[26]
Osage Nation[26]
Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Peoria Tribe of Indians[26]
Quapaw Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians of Michigan
Seminole Nation[26]
Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma[26]
Shawnee Tribe[26]
Thlopthlocco Tribal Town[26]
Tonkawa Tribe[26]
Wyandotte Nation[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws#Implementation

Its still about blood... its still about lineage... its still about race.

In other words.... you HAVE to be a decendent of a native american to be a member.

Have a nice day. [:D]

I thank you for allowing me to educate you on this matter.



Kirata -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:13:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I thank you for allowing me to educate you on this matter.

Yeah, me too. I get it now. It's kinda like "Who is an Aryan?" or "Who is a Jew?" or "Who is a white man?"

Thanks!

K.




tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:15:13 PM)

Pretty much. The federal government will accept your thanks

The concept of blood quantum was not widely applied until the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934. The government used it to establish which individuals could be recognized as Native American and be eligible for financial and other benefits under treaties that were made, or sales of land.



Missokyst -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:18:30 PM)

I would like to point out also that for many of the southern california "tribes", blood doesnt really matter. My own family is generations deep in Ca, but when it was still a Mexican territory, natives were incorporated into spanish culture and heritage. And this was further eroded when the church included natives as members. Any and all rights which might have gone to other tribes up the line in history, were lost to most so cal natives due to their americanization. Blood sometimes does not negate politics.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:23:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


Please restrain from insulting other posters, ld.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:25:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


edited, because I read the object of ridicule incorrectly.

Anyway, Ron ... please be careful, eh?

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:28:36 PM)

Which is why the federal government required blood quantums. They knew how hard it would be to prove.

The myth of blood quantum is just that, a myth. Today, when a tribal member says he or she is a "fullblood," unless that person belongs to one of the really huge tribes like the Navajo, the extreme likelihood is that person has several tribes' worth of blood, and she or he is only a fullblood on paper -- the Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood, to be precise. In fact, the whole idea of blood quantum is an invention of the United States government that was meant to ensure that only tribal members were able to access the programs set aside for Indians (you know, inadequate health care, insufficient educational benefits and the like).

http://www.hcn.org/issues/41.2/blood-quantum-myth

Im not arguing the validity of its use. Im stating it is a requirement... some its a hige percentage.. some just a drop as long as you can trace back your lineage to a member.

Blood quantum is a requirement for every tribe. The degree is the difference. In order to have a direct lineage, you would have to be a certain percentage... even if that percentage is 0.01



FirmhandKY -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 1:29:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

If someone of Mexican ancestry who is an American citizen speaks Spanish at home with their spouse and children, celebrates Cinco de Mayo, plays Mexican music on their i-Pod and watches Univision on their TV really an American citizen? Some would say "No" - even though that person was born in the United States to a family that can trace their American citizenship back to an ancestor who fought side-by-side with Jim Bowie and Davy Crockett at the Alamo againt Santa Anna. They would claim the person, at best, was an example of "detrimental multiculturalism" and not a "real" American.


I couldn't agree with the bolded more strongly.

Firm - is this what you mean by detrimental multiculturalism?

kalikshama,

I'm following the discussion, but also I have a lot of work that I'm trying to accomplish.  It's difficult to devote the amount of time that I require in order to phrase and parse my words so that they are effective and meaningful, so I'm more or less letting things develop as people wish.

My personal beliefs have been echoed several times.  Probably the most concise is by TheHeretic, and his "stew" description.

I think that multiculturalism is detrimental when it tears at the things that are the basis of what American is. 

We have accepted and integrated many different cultures and peoples by asking them to adhere to a few basics - some of them have been mentioned already, but specifically the rule of law and the basic civil morality in which the responsibility of individuals - rather than clans, families or government - are the most important leg of success.

It becomes dysfunctional when some allow and encourage the separation and tells us that we must "respect" certain differences when those differing cultural beliefs and practices are at odds with those basic, shared American cultural imperatives.

Language is a particular issue with some people.  Personally, I don't think that anyone should be required by law to speak English.  However, I also do not believe that we should make many accommodations to speakers of other languages in our official capacity.  Basic school classes in any language other than English shouldn't be funded by the public, nor encouraged at all through the force of government.

Religion is often an issue, especially when a conflict between American legal and cultural norms conflict with directives of a religion, or a culture.  Some have been mentioned (genital mutilation of girls) but there are plenty of other examples: polygamy, honor-killings and suttee are just a few.

But there are also cultural beliefs - sometimes deeply intertwined with religion, sometimes not - that are antithetical the American norms:  bribery of government officials is commonly accepted in many cultures.  So is obedience to a clan or family leader above the law.  Another is the level of "trust" that you extend to other, non-family members in a society (the US has very high trust levels as the norm.  Many other societies do not).

Where is the line, as we go down "the differences" between any other culture, and American culture?

I'm not sure anyone will agree to where that line is, exactly, but I think we all know it is there.

Firm



kalikshama -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 2:23:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As Dr. Michael Savage said "the lefties want to protest everything in the country but then,.....want to re-elect Obama."
"What do we want!?"
"We don't know!"
When do we want it?"
"Now!"


As Dan Savage says, “Owning a gun in America is one way for conservative white males to demonstrate their anger at crime, liberalism, feminism, and modernity.”



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 3:19:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


1.  How does multiculturalism affect our future as a society and nation, and


In an American society not only do we have the cultures from one's heritage, but the cultures that have been established in such a large country. I am sure most are thinking along the lines of country of origin, but if you also look at the current cultural contrast between say New England, The South, and California, you can notice differences in speech, manners and thoughts of importance towards society.

I believe that as a nation of immigrants, it is important for each culture within the entire nation to be able to be proud and display what they consider important to themselves. This will mean at times that certain ideals will clash, but that I see as a good thing as each culture works out it's own "elbow room" within our society they will change things over time so that it all fits.

There will always be the problem of people disliking others because they are different though. This is human nature, and should be tempered by societal pressures and the rule of law.

quote:


2.  Should concrete legal or structural changes be considered to "atone" for past actions of groups against other groups?  I'm particularly interested in this part of the discussion as it applies to "Native Americans", and not really the entire black slavery parts of our history (although I suspect we'll go there anyway).


No. I do not believe there is any type of atonement that will assist any culture to forgive historic wrong doings towards their culture. There has been much discrimination and wrong done to many different groups throughout American history, and to start a priority of which to atone to would only cause more of the same, as each group feels slighted by atonement done for another, but not for them.

Instead, we learn from the mistakes of history and forge concrete legal and structural changes to prevent current issues from arising. All people should be treated equitably under the law, in an ideal society.

quote:


To start the discussion, I'd like to make two claim: 

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.


I would need further explanation of what you mean by "currently practiced and espoused", and possibly further in this topic it is.

quote:


2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Do you agree or disagree with either of these claims?  Comments?

Firm


I agree here, but also as stated above, to start any kind of atonement would have to include atonement to all, or it will create it's own issues of being seen as biased.

An example, I will use my maternal side of the family. They are "Hillbillies", meaning the come from the Appalachian Mountains. First settling at the north areas of those mountains, and over the generations moving southward until they settled for many generations within the areas of those mountains from Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama. They had by that time develooped and adapted certain aspects of Irish-Scottish traditions with what is now consider Appalachian traditions. Being from the mountains, less educated and more reclusive, they were seen and treated a certain way by those close to the mountains. This is/was a small clash of cultures.

The thinking and customs of families of the Appalachians were not universal though, as that mountain chain spans several states and many different cultures settled within them. Many having mixed blood with Native Americans and African-American, at times, also now begs the question as historically which culture do they represent. Since they are predominantly white, so they represent poor white caucasians? Some of them may have up to 1/4 Cherokee in them, so do they qualify as part of the Native American culture because of that? Where would these questions end, and who would decide? After it was all sorted out, we would still be left with those that are of no specific culture, but the one they live in here and now.

It is the here and now that I am most concerned with. I have pride in my heritage, but I am an American, which means there is a mix bag of things that stands for.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 3:48:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

As Dr. Michael Savage said "the lefties want to protest everything in the country but then,.....want to re-elect Obama."
"What do we want!?"
"We don't know!"
When do we want it?"
"Now!"


That REALLY sounds like the TEA party.



mnottertail -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 3:51:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


edited, because I read the object of ridicule incorrectly.

Anyway, Ron ... please be careful, eh?

Firm


LOL, Alotta folks read me incorrectly or my intent incorrectly, I thought I was fuckin gangbusters at dripping sarcasm, but now theres a discussion on the 16th amendment even though a couple of folks should have caught a clear Bagdad Bob and the later 1910 routine.

Anyway, remember when Merc used to post my name in the quote and it ended up being from someone else? And then we would have to kick each other in the nuts until it straightened out? GAWD, I miss tha guy.

No resonant ill will. I'm OK, you're OK. No reason for guilt. (LOL, and he hits the topic........)



luckydawg -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 4:06:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Tribes requiring 1/2 degree blood quantum for membership

(equivalent to one parent)
Kialegee Tribal Town[26]

.........(I cut out the list for brevity)
Tonkawa Tribe[26]
Wyandotte Nation[26]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_quantum_laws#Implementation

Its still about blood... its still about lineage... its still about race.

In other words.... you HAVE to be a decendent of a native american to be a member.

Have a nice day. [:D]

I thank you for allowing me to educate you on this matter.



BUt you dont HAVE TO BE A DESCENDANT to be a member. nothign in your quote says you do.


Allow me to educate you with a link of my own

http://www.doi.gov/tribes/enrollment.cfm

"What are tribal membership requirements?

Tribal enrollment criteria are set forth in tribal constitutions, articles of incorporation or ordinances. The criterion varies from tribe to tribe, so uniform membership requirements do not exist.

Two common requirements for membership are lineal decendency from someone named on the tribe's base roll or relationship to a tribal member who descended from someone named on the base roll. (A "base roll" is the original list of members as designated in a tribal constitution or other document specifying enrollment criteria.) Other conditions such as[/b] tribal blood quantum, tribal residency, or continued contact with the tribe are common.



tazzygirl -> RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II (10/5/2011 4:31:49 PM)

From your own source....

How do I apply for enrollment in a tribe?

After you have completed your genealogical research, documented your ancestry, and determined the tribe with which your ancestor was affiliated, you are ready to contact the tribe directly to obtain the criteria for membership.

I do enjoy teaching. [:D]

quote:

Other conditions such as tribal blood quantum, tribal residency, or continued contact with the tribe are common.


This isnt making the point you think it is making. I gave a list of tribes and their requirements. They all list a direct lineage as a requirement. No matter how hard you want to rant against that fact, its still a fact. If you dont have a direct lineage with a tribe, you wont be a member.





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