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ORIGINAL: Invictus754

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ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
You're just repeating the same cycle.  Either she learns how to deal with your lack of perfections as a mature adult, or she doesn't get involved in an adult relationship. 

I think you should refuse to be in a relationship with her until she can live as a competent independent adult for at least 18 months.  THEN you can start to date eachother again.

This is the second time you have suggested (not to the same person, of course) that they should stay out of a relationship.  Are you relationship-adverse?  To me, ending this relationship would be like telling a swimmer, "gee, that backstroke is needing some work.  Stay out of the pool till it gets better."  If you are not working on the relationship, the relationship will not benefit from it. 
 
Personally, it sounds like she needs to be told the next break up is the last one, however.  She needs to know that you are there for her, but only as long as she is trying to work on her issues.  If she cuts and runs, the last bridge is burned and there is no coming back.  Some subs are just not worth the trouble, and she sounds like she has been a whole heap of it.
 
As TNstepsout said, pull her in, slam the door, lock it and tell her she is now to obey you fully.  If she unlocks the door and splits, lock it behind her.

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ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear RaceBannon, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
As I read, re-read and read again, it is extremely evident there is a tug of war per se. 
 
Based on what you wrote, knowing there are two sides of every story; people see things differently and communication is paramount.  Being new at this, it is a rough road as you both are trying to discover yourselves, let alone trying to guide another person at the same time.  This is no different than running into the ditch, get out of it, go to the opposite side of the road and run into the ditch there to.  Back and forth.
 
Perhaps you both need to sit down and communicate.  Get lists made of what is pro and cons, make up situations, for example; When I go to X with troubles, I do this and X does this.  Perhaps by identifying what it is, what it is not and, then really focus on the what is not clearly identified.  Sometimes it is blending between both.
 
It is also a need to make sure there is a clear line, as to what is fantasy and what is reality.  Fantasy is safe; perhaps why she isn't willing to seek out others and get a dose of what 'reality' is.  It is too beautiful in fantasy, that real life is scary and isn't as sexually driven throughout the entire book.  Sex sells.  So, perhaps what else does she have of value more precious than sex?
 
BDSM support and education groups are great.  Perhaps reading up on some books, Screw the Roses really covers a lot for beginners and I do endorse Jay Wiseman's book SM101.  All books can offer different views on things but, sometimes you just need to create your own recipe to success.
 
Another observation of this lass, is that she has been struggling with relationships and or situations that have failed.  Repeating the pattern, as to create it so all relationships will fail, will remain in the traffic pattern in behavior and also in the mental chat that goes on inside her mind.  Many questions need to be asked.  It is comfortable in knowing the 'end' of the story/relationship and it is a real effort to break that unbroken thread of mental chat and behavior and or attitude as it deals with relationships.
 
Sometimes, people use BDSM and or a  D/s relationship in patching up relationships.  The question is--are you both ready to work on yourselves before working on the partner-- each other?
 
Fantasy BDSM, where dreams come true and happy endings.  However, I would prefer a partner to enjoy in reality and walk in the happy times as much as the sad times.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

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ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Race,

I cannot tell you how much it breaks my heart to read your story, the story I wrote which parallels yours so closely as to be scary, ended badly for US but well for us as individuals.  However, to this day, mention of her name brings my heart to a stop.

I can give you some advice you will ignore and she will tell you is wrong.  If you want to be a dominant, BE one. 

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What would you think

  WRONG, who the fuck cares what she thinks!  As a therapist once asked me during my version of this relationship "who exactly is the dominant"?  The problem with being a dominant, is you don't really get to be dominant of THAT girl, you get to put out a yard sign saying Dominant, and you get to dominate whomever shows up and wants to set up house with you.  Meaning, you say, I want my submissive to do X and only those who enjoy doing X are going to be interested in being with you.

If you structure the relationship to make it work with her, she is in charge and will leave you.

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This is a good point. Had I considered myself a "Dom, Master, or Lord Sultan of the Western World" and had been in the lifestyle when we met such would probably be the case, but it was not so. She just for the first time met a man who passion for passion rivaled her own. I have dominated our emotional relationship and have made many demands upon her because not only must I adhere to certain standards of love, but I felt she needed to learn how to love and such demands could light the way.

The D/s part of our relationship was certainly led by her needs. Soon after our meeting she began to divulge her secret longings to me; many of which confused and often still confuse me. I never knew a woman could have such feelings, nor knew I could be attracted to a women of such desires. On one of these posts someone described me as "a service top" (LOL), which sounded pretty spot on. Yet I have found my journeys into this BDSM world a cathartic experience for such intimacy has often proven profound not only to her, but to me as well.

Perhaps in the future, if I ever continue with another sub (for now the vanilla world might need me back), perhaps I will know exactly what I demand. At this point, my studies have been only to understand her and to find out if I can fill such needs; if they fit into my own idea of a relationship. So far, I have found filling such needs not exactly easy (it is difficult to first spank a woman), but often amazingly erotic (ok, I like spanking a girl!) and remarkably tender (I do like caring for someone in this way). I too am learning and finding that perhaps this might be my path once I stop reeling from this experience. We will see.

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The other problem is she is too immature, too inexperienced to recognize any of this.  She is still in love with her fantasies and hasn't been beaten around the head enough by reality to see she has someone pretty damn good standing in front of her.  Trust me, you are a better dominant that 2/3 of those here on collarme already.

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Thank you.

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As for treating submissives like an adult child, there are many similarities.  You are right about consistency and firmness.  One you are wrong about is punishment, use it very very sparingly,  use disapointment first, since submissives are not in fact children, this works surprisingly well.  Another is to show love but remove yourself.  Make her kneel at your feet at the side of a couch with her facing the wall while you do something quiet.  Put a hand on her shoulder to make her feel connected but NO other connection.  It is an adult time out.

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I'm not quite sure I explained how or how often I used punishment in my note (I don't think I did). "Punishment" or "Discipline" was for me the most difficult aspect of learning to Dominate. I first had to understand why a woman would wish such a thing. Finally I realized that if I punished her she would not have to punish herself (a lifelong ritual for her). It was then I had to figure out how to do such a thing. Spanking and belts were pleasure to her; yet after being spanked after small transgressions seemed to calm her and bring us closer (good). When once she really messed up I punished her for the first time: I witheld my physical affection. This worked very well. She HATED that.

I would have continued to explore this part of the relationship but now she is running to that place she has always ran in trouble: square one.

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It is hard for me to write clearly as this hits me at a very core place on any number of levels so if this is a bit confused, forgive me. 

What you need to do is make it clear this is YOUR ship, she is the ONLY crew you want, but YOU are in charge.   Do not say she is free to leave (hidden message of "I don't want you" ) but instead say "these are the rules to stay".

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This has been done. I have stated the conditions on which we can be together. I put it differently yet sytanx is sometimes everything; thanks for the suggestion.

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As for the phone calls, trust me again, been there, fucked that up.  You have to learn to make sure she feels connected with you, even if you have to ring off.  You also have to learn (I may just be projecting here) to not take her panick, her disapointment, her almost anything as a sign of your failure or of you making a mistake.  She is the one who needs support, it is HER insecurity that requires all the calls.  Don't hear blame (which I used to prior to anger management therapy) her her screaming "help me" no matter what words leave her mouth.  I developed  a calm soothing tone that I  use (too late for "this" relationship) and a sort of banter to help sooth her down.

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Well the calls and letters now often are in anger now that we are apart. I do not succumb to too much emotion. They are her fears she fights not mine. I merely insist that some aspects of her needs will not be changing and that she needs to embrace such needs rather than fight them. She has choices to make now. I point out the options and reasons good or bad. But they are her choices to make. We never really got to that point where she accepted that calling me with her fears was acceptable. She was just learning to deal with such fears before she made this latest exit.

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Oh and stop reading S&M erotica, I BEGyou to buy a copy of The Topping Book and The Bottoming Book!  They won't solve your problems but they will make you feel like you are doing some of the right things.

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Yes, but she just got the "Story of O" and neither hell nor high water will stop that book from being opened. Again, she has not exactly embraced "working" on her submission; it is the same with her relationships. She expects instant perfection from both herself and love. I was just beginning to show her ways in which to aggresively persue being better at fufilling her desires and working on relationships.

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I am now going to go off and have my own little pitty party and pine for lost time and past mistakes....

Now, now...we are but men not Gods, eh?(though many on this sight speak of themselves otherwise) Mistakes are inherent in this little game. If those we are with cannot forgive them, it is not our fault for giving it our best. If we have done our best (and believe me I NEVER knew I was capable of such compassionate understanding), we can truly feel good about our efforts (which i surely do).

thanks for the thoughts

(in reply to CrappyDom)

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ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Oh, I want to add, when she is railing away at what an asshole, idiot, submissive, abuser, etc, she is really saying "I am afraid".  What she needs from you is for you to be a rock.  This is asking a LOT, an almost unbearable burden (fuck the usual platitudes) of you but if you think she is worth it, BE that rock.  Let her rail against you, make it clear always that you love her, that she is your little girl, and that you will be there for her when she calms down.  Remember, they ACT like children but submissives are NOT children.  Tell her when she calms down, you have a place for her at your feet. 

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu here. Didn't we just do this same thread?

I'm going to repost the same advice I gave you last time because it's the exact same issue.

Repost:

What an extrodinary post. I offer only a few observations based on what you've written and please understand this is based only on my own experiences and what has worked in my own relationship with Himself. Most of this comes from how he treats me.. and we just celebrated 10 years together, so something is working. ;)

Don't argue with her. Fighting takes two... let her try it solo and see how quickly such fizzles. Be in control of the situation. Be her Master and don't allow the behavior and certainly don't engage in it yourself. Send her off to reflect... when she's calm and can speak to you as an adult without fighting, then allow her to do so. Control of your own emotions is not always easy, but it is imperative that you do so. Often times instituting a ritual, at least in the beginning, can help guide the relationship in the direction you want it to go. The reins are yours to take.. you have only to pick them up and use them wisely.

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Very sage advice and one to listen to from someone who has successfully scaled the difficult ways in this kind of life. Rituals were something I had wished to explore with her and we were just beginning to talk about such things before she left.

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If you have a strong foundation, the passion won't burn it out, so take time for each other. Recognize the needs each have, but, Sir, you must remain in control and follow through is so important. Say what you mean, mean what you say and act when you must act. Starting slow and building brick by brick is no bad thing... the mortar is your consistancy.

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Our foundation was founded upon laughter, passion, and love, yet commitment on her part has always been the missing ingredient. It will surely prove the fatal one is this is truly the end.

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I would hesitate to try to 'become' what she needs. Be who you are, then there is no 'try'.. accept yourself first, offer that and work towards growth, but don't try to change your basic nature. It seldom works and is frustrating as hell when it fails.. not just for her, but for you as well.

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Becoming what she needs has been a difficult yet incredible experience for me. My previous marriage was dominated by my wife's vibrant personality and may well have been the key to our break (the woman could talk, and talk, and talk). I required a greater amount of attention than what could be given in her expansive social life. This girl now gives me an incredible amount of attention (still does) along with a far greater amount of responsibility; responsibiltiy I have truly embraced. We were just still figuring out the boundries of such a relationship before she left. We were wading into something wonderful; perhaps a GIANT leap on my part would have been better in certain aspects, but I told her five months ago that I would love her and love her for life (if she wished), and that was a pretty big and bold leap for any man. If I did not leap so far in certain aspects of the D/s game (consistency) it is more because I am new to this than lack of desire or will. I became Dom because she was sub and found I liked it. That is the foundation on which I began to learn.

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There is no blame. If it's meant to be, you'll make it work but do so from a place of truth of self.. and she needs to do that as well.

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I do not blame myself for I have done my best. I do not blame her for she truly seeks love and self actualization; that she looks in the wrong place is merely par for the course for her. It bears no reflection upon me. I always wish her well.

thank you for you thoughts

(in reply to BitaTruble)

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ORIGINAL: RaceBannon

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I'm getting a distinct feeling of deja vu here. Didn't we just do this same thread?

I'm going to repost the same advice I gave you last time because it's the exact same issue.

Repost:

What an extrodinary post. I offer only a few observations based on what you've written and please understand this is based only on my own experiences and what has worked in my own relationship with Himself. Most of this comes from how he treats me.. and we just celebrated 10 years together, so something is working. ;)

Don't argue with her. Fighting takes two... let her try it solo and see how quickly such fizzles. Be in control of the situation. Be her Master and don't allow the behavior and certainly don't engage in it yourself. Send her off to reflect... when she's calm and can speak to you as an adult without fighting, then allow her to do so. Control of your own emotions is not always easy, but it is imperative that you do so. Often times instituting a ritual, at least in the beginning, can help guide the relationship in the direction you want it to go. The reins are yours to take.. you have only to pick them up and use them wisely.

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Very sage advice and one to listen to from someone who has successfully scaled the difficult ways in this kind of life. Rituals were something I had wished to explore with her and we were just beginning to talk about such things before she left.

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If you have a strong foundation, the passion won't burn it out, so take time for each other. Recognize the needs each have, but, Sir, you must remain in control and follow through is so important. Say what you mean, mean what you say and act when you must act. Starting slow and building brick by brick is no bad thing... the mortar is your consistancy.

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Our foundation was founded upon laughter, passion, and love, yet commitment on her part has always been the missing ingredient. It will surely prove the fatal one is this is truly the end.
I would hesitate to try to 'become' what she needs. Be who you are, then there is no 'try'.. accept yourself first, offer that and work towards growth, but don't try to change your basic nature. It seldom works and is frustrating as hell when it fails.. not just for her, but for you as well.

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Becoming what she needs has been a difficult yet incredible experience for me. My previous marriage was dominated by my wife's vibrant personality and may well have been the key to our break (the woman could talk, and talk, and talk). I required a greater amount of attention than what could be given in her expansive social life. This girl now gives me an incredible amount of attention (still does) along with a far greater amount of responsibility; responsibiltiy I have truly embraced. We were just still figuring out the boundries of such a relationship before she left. We were wading into something wonderful; perhaps a GIANT leap on my part would have been better in certain aspects, but I told her five months ago that I would love her and love her for life (if she wished), and that was a pretty big and bold leap for any man. If I did not leap so far in certain aspects of the D/s game (consistency) it is more because I am new to this than lack of desire or will. I became Dom because she was sub and found I liked it. That is the foundation on which I began to learn.

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There is no blame. If it's meant to be, you'll make it work but do so from a place of truth of self.. and she needs to do that as well.

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I do not blame myself for I have done my best. I do not blame her for she truly seeks love and self actualization; that she looks in the wrong place is merely par for the course for her. It bears no reflection upon me. I always wish her well.

thank you for you thoughts

(in reply to RaceBannon)

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ORIGINAL: Level

Race, you need to look inside yourself and determine if you can/want to handle being called "5 to 10 times a day to get me through my day, a man who will spend a great deal of time thinking only of my needs and how to fill them, a man who will tell me what to wear, what and how much to eat, when to strip and be taken, and all other manner of things for which I have secret desires for him to do to me. "...... she may grow into a more calm and responsible submissive, or not, and if not, do you think you might get burned out having to micromanage her to that degree?

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Perhaps you are right. Yet "forcing" a woman into a relationship is not only against my nature, but it is a method I believe to be just plain wrong or a sure way to drive yourself and your lover insane. Thank you, but this is not an option.

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ORIGINAL: TNstepsout

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Perhaps you are right. Yet "forcing" a woman into a relationship is not only against my nature, but it is a method I believe to be just plain wrong or a sure way to drive yourself and your lover insane. Thank you, but this is not an option.

I wasn't really speaking of forcing her into a relationship. What I was speaking of was forcing her to make a decision. I'm also saying this appears to be what she wants, based on what you said. If what she wants is not compatible with what you can give then you probably need to rethink the whole relationship.

To me, she is screaming "I can't decide! I'm totally on the fence. YOU DECIDE!" You are responding by feeling uncomfortable taking away her control and instead trying to convince her to make the decision you want. This in turn causes her to feel less certain of your strength, puts the decision making back on her shoulders and causes more stress. Make sense?

I can understand why you would want an adult, rational decision, rather than one from a confused child, however I'm not sure you're going to get that with this person at this time in her life. If that's what you require, then perhaps LA is right and you should put the whole thing on hold for a while and help her to become more self-reliant so she can come to you as an adult.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Race, I could babble on and on but I did see one of your posts that to me make the most sense. Without knowing either one of you I can see from your posts that there is alot of emotion and anxiety on both sides. Alot of unsettledness (not sure that is a word)  and perhaps a drive for both of you to have the other solve your individual emotional needs. I, personally, think it might be best for the two of you as individuals work on yourselves, get your own lives in order. Get settled inside and during the process avoid the whole relationship thing entirely. I am sure many would gasp in horror at the very idea however, being in this process myself, in as much as I can,  I have to say that it has been the best thing I have ever done on so many levels. My emotions do not have my brain bouncing around all over the inside of my skull. I can see that if someone special comes along I am going to be far more able to have the kind of relationship I always wanted. Doing this does not mean the two of you have to give up on a relationship together, it can be the exact opposite if you look at it as you are laying the groundwork for a really great and long term relationship. You could decide upon a time frame, what you want to accomplish, how you will accomplish it. Maybe set times to check in on another, make any adjustments, make sure you both want the same things. It would give you both a goal, something to work towards rather than a feeling of giving up or quitting..........Just my thoughts

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ORIGINAL: RaceBannon

...If she were fleeing to be alone and to collect her thoughts it would be different. But she goes back to a man ... 

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ORIGINAL: RaceBannon

First of all before the flack hits, yes I know, “RaceBannon” was the wrong name to pick (Who knew? Everyone but me evidently).

Damn...you've got me feeling my age!  I remember Johnny Quest.