RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (Full Version)

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xssve -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 6:39:22 AM)

Medicare is not really socialized medicine, the governement doesn't provide actual services, they act as insurer, no provider.

The current system is more like socialized medicine, with the HMO's and the insurance companies mandating care options, procedures, etc., and trying to extract compulsory premiums - much like they already do for automobile insurance.

Didn't read the whole list, but right off the top:

Fair Trade does work significantly different from free trade, tariffs are not levied against all imports, only those that are priced below fair market value due to dumping, subsidies from governments, etc.

Otherwise, unsubsidized farmers and manufacturer's here are competing with subsidized production of foreign goods, it essentially enforces fair business practices, free trade naturally has led to an increase in subsidies, and it's back to the trade subsidy wars of the 70's.

The Japanese dumped steel in the Eighties, priced below their cost of manufacture, in order to gain market share and break the competition, in capitalism that is considered monopolistic behavior.

Another case of Rush lying to your face to protect his rent seeking, taxpayer supported corporate clients.

Google up "corporate welfare".




tazzygirl -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 7:21:33 AM)

Socialized medicine is a term used to describe a system for providing medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health services and subsidies derived from taxation.

That isnt Medicare, Medicaid or VA?




Sanity -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 7:29:36 AM)


I know its rude of me to interrupt your childish derail but heres some on-topic news anyway:

"Dont talk to the reporters man, theyll try and make us look stoopid..." [:D]

quote:

Some ‘Occupy Sacramento’ Protesters Lash Out At Questions

Organizer Anthony Bondi said he has what he referred to as a “message team” working on the primary goals of the local protests, which he admitted “was kind of vague.”

“That message team will reveal that tomorrow [Friday] morning,” Bondi said.

“So you guys are in the process of forming the reasons why you are here?” asked CBS13 reporter Tony Lopez. “Exactly correct,” Bondi said.
...
Groups of demonstrators gathered around television cameras periodically and tried to shout down reporters with accusations of manipulating coverage of the protest. Other isolated protesters tried to convince attendees to avoid speaking with the media altogether.

http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/10/07/some-%E2%80%98occupy-sacramento%E2%80%99-protesters-lash-out-at-questions/







mnottertail -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 7:33:28 AM)

Yeah, so some thought that the media was manipulating the story to make the rightists look stupider than they are. I call that fair and balanced, the patriotic left reaching out in brotherhood to the rightists.





xssve -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 7:55:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Socialized medicine is a term used to describe a system for providing medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health services and subsidies derived from taxation.

That isnt Medicare, Medicaid or VA?
In the case of the VA, the government does provide actual healthcare services, but then the military is a socialist institution from top to bottom, entirely supported by taxes. IHS is similar.

In Medicare and Medicaid the government acts as insurer, and in that capacity, does regulate services rendered just like a private insurance companies do, but he services themselves are provided by private health care providers.

It's public health insurance essentially, the providers are private doctors, PT's, dermatologists, pharmacists, hospitals, etc., who bill Medicare or Medicaid, just like they would bill any other insurer.




tazzygirl -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 8:04:38 AM)

Yet who are limited as to what they can bill, what tests they can perform, what procedures can be done.




xssve -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 8:14:07 AM)

i.e., when youfill out the form at the doctor or the emergency room, Medicare or Medicaid,is what you write in the space reserved for your health insure, the health provider then bills Medicare or Medicaid just like they would bill your private insurer. In most cases, the bill is actually sent to a private HMO, who contract their services to the government, and they apply to the government for reimbursement - that is how the thing works currently, i.e., HMO's are the middleman,a dn much of the debate surrounds the fact that HMO's overhead far exceeds the cost of direct government management, the "Public Option" which HMO's naturally find highly objectionable, since they can siphon of a portion of the reimbursment, before paying for the actual healthcare - the "profits" those HMO's generate from being in the middle are in fact taxpayer dollars when the government is acting as insurer, hence, "socialized helathcare", since in many cases, HMO's act as both middleman and healthcare provider.

HMO's were originally designed as a one stop place for private insurance, geared more towards business, csicne business is mandated to provide healthcare for full time employees.

Going to the public option would cut the HMO's out of the loop, payments would be direct from the government to the healthcare provider, HMO's would be forced to become more competitive (as it is, they more resemble a cabal run by insurance companies more than a competitive industry), businesses would not have to provide healthcare insurance for full time employees, which would remove much of the incentive for hiring temps and part time workers instead of full time workers and to save themselves the cost of benefits.

Those saving would also presumably be passed on to the workers in the form of salaries, according to the law of supply and demand, as it's an established principle in economics that benefits costs, including payroll taxes, are ultimately passed on to the worker in the form of reduced wages.




xssve -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 8:20:59 AM)

Under the current system, you're really getting the worst of both worlds: HMO's jacking up overhead and being stingy with services to maximize profit, which is subsidized by taxpayers.

It's kind of a misnomer to call it "privatization"  when the taxpayer is footing the bill - that goes for most forms of privatization, including the prison system, which is actually a de facto form of corporate for-profit socialism, as the taxpayer is the source of the profits.




mnottertail -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 8:37:13 AM)

http://whitehousetapes.net/clip/richard-nixon-john-ehrlichman-all-incentives-are-toward-less-medical-care

Nixon drove the trolley off the tracks with full knowledge, for his buddy, Kaiser.

The HMO model is take the money and fuck em.




xssve -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 9:00:00 AM)

Well, the danger of government run healthcare has never really been that we'd end up with a system like Canada's, which is neither good nor bad, but essentially a mixed blessing (as we used to say in the old Nav, "there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way"), but that it would turn into corporate insurer rent seeking, protecting corporate health insurer profits at the the expense of every other industry that has to deal with profit margins determined by supply and demand market conditions.

If you're in manufacturing, rather than healthcare, universal healthcare is eminently desireable: it lowers your costs and allows you to invest that money in other capital improvements rather than benefits for people that no longer even work for you, same with pensions - the only people benefiting from this are the health insurance corporations, it's very profitable due to the is rent seeking situation and hence they have a lot of money to spend on lobbying - at taxpayer expense - to keep it that way, as opposed to businesses with tighter margins that don't have the extra income to pay lobbyists.

We are footing the bill for a system that by creating these perverse incentives, reduces competition, and competitiveness, drives prices up, and feeds corruption.

Thepublic option would reduce the governments role to insurance provider, period - this would shift competition from the HMO's, competing for government dollars, which creates a strong perverse incentive for price fixing, as being and HMO is not a home business, there are only a handful of them, to competition between healthcare providers themselves to lower costs and increase quality of services, i.e. the way competition in capitalism is supposed to work.




tazzygirl -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 9:01:29 AM)

yep. close as many hopsitals as they can. limit bed space. grab more stockholders. pay outrageous bonuses. and put pretty statues and fountains outside of the hospitals... like patients really give a damn about how good the building looks on the outside.

What will happen is that they will go out of business. They are another group that is "too big to fail" VA is cheaper because its single payer. None of that billing 20 different insurance companies crap. medicaid is the same way. Medicare is becoming like he HMO's... and that needs to stop. Part A should be enough with a prescription option if you want to pay for it. Its a crying shame old people have to decide between food or heat and medicine.




Sanity -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 11:12:37 AM)


Here ya go, a leftists fucking dream state:

quote:

Hunger crisis grips North Korea as food runs short


U.S. and South Korea won't resume aid unless communist regime meets certain conditions


HAEJU, North Korea — In a pediatric hospital in North Korea's most productive farming province, children lay two to a bed. All showed signs of severe malnutrition: skin infections, patchy hair, listless apathy.


"Their mothers have to bring them here on bicycles," said duty doctor Jang Kum Son in the Yellow Sea port city of Haeju. "We used to have an ambulance but it's completely broken down. One mother traveled 72 kilometers (45 miles). By the time they get here, it's often too late."

It's also getting late for North Korea[image]http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_11pxw.gif[/image] to get the massive amount of food aid it claims to need before the harsh winter sets in. The country's dysfunctional food-distribution system, rising global commodities prices and sanctions imposed over Pyongyang's nuclear and missile programs had contributed to what appears to be a hunger crisis in the North, even before devastating summer floods and typhoons compounded the emergency.

The regime's appeals for massive food aid have gone mostly unanswered by a skeptical international community. Only 30 percent of a United Nations food aid target for North Korea has been met so far. The United States[image]http://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_11pxw.gif[/image] and South Korea, the two biggest donors before sanctions, have said they won't resume aid until they are satisfied the military-led communist regime won't divert the aid for its own uses and progress is made on disarmament talks.


Full article here


Finally, a place these far left protesters can call home.





FearlessHrt -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 12:26:41 PM)

Big Government leads to "the people " being slaves.
Technology is allowing the One World Order (the BIGGEST of BIG GOVERNMENT)
to tighten its noose. You can protest all you want, the end of America (and web sites
like Collar Me) is near. Enjoy your life while you still can.




mnottertail -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 12:28:03 PM)

Hmmmmm, most technology is owned by corporations,,,,,,,,I see a dichotomy here.//////////////




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 1:07:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Socialized medicine is a term used to describe a system for providing medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health services and subsidies derived from taxation.

That isnt Medicare, Medicaid or VA?
In the case of the VA, the government does provide actual healthcare services, but then the military is a socialist institution from top to bottom, entirely supported by taxes. IHS is similar.

In Medicare and Medicaid the government acts as insurer, and in that capacity, does regulate services rendered just like a private insurance companies do, but he services themselves are provided by private health care providers.

It's public health insurance essentially, the providers are private doctors, PT's, dermatologists, pharmacists, hospitals, etc., who bill Medicare or Medicaid, just like they would bill any other insurer.



VA isnt "socialism", since the military isnt a business.




HannahLynHeather -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 1:10:09 PM)

still splitting fucking hairs eh willbe? [:D]

good to know some things never change.




mnottertail -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 1:12:18 PM)

Then "socialism" isn't "socialism" since the government isn't a business.

DUCY?

(and why the superfluous quotes?)




VideoAdminDelta -> RE: Idiotic Demands of the Wall Street Protestors (10/7/2011 3:50:56 PM)

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