RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan

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Trekkie -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 1:13:33 PM)
Actually, I recall reading an article about what happened when, I think it was Reagan, ended the government program that allowed non-citizens to legally work in agriculture. When the bracero program ended, the agriculture lobby howled. Americans wouldn't do that work. Crops would rot. America would starve. What actually happened was, agriculture adapted. Some forms of agriculture automated. Others paid their workers more. On average, the wages paid to farm workers had to go up 40%, to fill the demand. The article then pointed out that, if the wages paid to manual laborers in agriculture were to go up 40%, right now, that the cost to the average family of four would be . . . One hundred dollars. A year. Now, granted, there's a lot of assumptions, there. For example, it's not at all guaranteed that a 40% pay hike would solve the problem, this time. Simply pointing out what happened last time America decided to kick the foreigners out of agriculture.

kalikshama -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 1:32:06 PM)
TAKE OUR JOBS There are two issues facing our nation--high unemployment and undocumented people in the workforce--that many Americans believe are related. Missing from the debate on both issues is an honest recognition that the food we all eat - at home, in restaurants and workplace cafeterias (including those in the Capitol) - comes to us from the labor of undocumented farm workers. Agriculture in the United States is dependent on an immigrant workforce. Three-quarters of all crop workers working in American agriculture were born outside the United States. According to government statistics, since the late 1990s, at least 50% of the crop workers have not been authorized to work legally in the United States. We are a nation in denial about our food supply. As a result the UFW has initiated the "Take Our Jobs" campaign. Farm workers are ready to welcome citizens and legal residents who wish to replace them in the field. We will use our knowledge and staff to help connect the unemployed with farm employers. Just fill out the form to the right and continue on to the request for job application. http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/359888/september-22-2010/fallback-position---migrant-worker---zoe-lofgren http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/360017/september-23-2010/fallback-position---migrant-worker-pt--2 And Stephen Colbert being serious, yet in character, in front of Congress: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeIO4pW05s

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 2:56:18 PM)
There are a lot of poor, desperate unemployed people in this country right now. I can't see any reason why they can't do agricultural work. It makes little sense to incur both the social costs of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, and continue to pay unemployment endlessly. Sounds like there are some jobs in Alabama. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse The fact is stoop labor, which definitely includes picking tomatoes, is back breaking work that has traditionally paid almost nothing. Only the poorest and most desperate will do it.

DomKen -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:20:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet There are a lot of poor, desperate unemployed people in this country right now. I can't see any reason why they can't do agricultural work. It makes little sense to incur both the social costs of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, and continue to pay unemployment endlessly. Sounds like there are some jobs in Alabama. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse The fact is stoop labor, which definitely includes picking tomatoes, is back breaking work that has traditionally paid almost nothing. Only the poorest and most desperate will do it. The biggest problem is these jobs are very short term. Pickers must move 6 to 8 times each season to stay employed. That means leaving kids behind or taking kids out of school. It means living in the truly squalid picker camps while paying rent at "home." It requires knowing where the next crop is and having transportation to get there. Most people are unwilling or unable to adopt that sort of lifestyle.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:24:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Gee, wouldn't the real problem be that the US Federal Government isn't doing its job in this area, and hasn't for a long time (border security)? So, the actual cause of any pain might be someone else's fault, not the government of Alabama, who is left holding the bag, and trying to address a national issue on a local basis. Yanno, kinda like a janitor trying to clean all the vomit and shit off of the stadium after the stadium guards turned a blind eye to the drugs and alcohol all the fans were bringing to the concert? You're blaming for fucking janitor for the mess, IMHO. Firm No, the mess is caused by consumers wanting the cheapest prices possible. It is equivalent to why we import so many goods from third world countries. Somewhat equivalent in the consumers eyes, far from equivalent in the impact on the economy.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:25:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse It's gonna be funny when all the immigrant hating people start bitching about grocery prices going up. Not if they see their taxes go down for all the subsidies they are providing.

tj444 -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:30:14 PM)
I guess we will all see what happens in due course, this year, next year... imo, the unemployment rate wont decrease in Alabama cuz i seriously doubt many Americans will take them.. but farms will go bankrupt. One farmer I read about was going to lose $150,000 this year and didnt expect to be farming next year as a result. I somehow doubt that farmers situation was his alone.. Farming is a very financially precarious occupation.. btw, i grew up on a farm,.. and,.. ummm..for those that dont know,.. few farms are located near public transportation.. its all well and good to say those on welfare or unemployment should be forced to take those jobs but how do you expect those people to get themselves to those farms everyday? not everyone in the US has a vehicle or the $ for repairs and gas to drive a long distance to said farms.. As i have said before, measures like this will do two things- (1) put many family farms out of business and (2) those jobs that you expect Americans to do will instead be exported to other countries like Chile, Mexico, etc... The US will do to farmers/farming jobs what you did to manufacturing jobs... bye bye..

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:34:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Trekkie Actually, I recall reading an article about what happened when, I think it was Reagan, ended the government program that allowed non-citizens to legally work in agriculture. They can now.

popeye1250 -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/7/2011 3:47:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Then make it easier for them to become legal instead of wasting precious government money and time, prosecuting and shipping them back. Let them become tax paying citizens. Novel idea I know... LaTigresse, they're not here to "become citizens" they're here to work then go home. There's an unlimited number of people in the world who would love to come here for 6-8 months to work and then return home "rich." Another poster in here some time ago who was familiar with agriculture in Calif said that "labor" accounts for 8% of retail produce prices so it's not going to break anyone. Many people are in favor of "worker programs" but not having the workers set down any roots in this country and certainly not to get citizenship. If it's a "worker program" that's what it is, you come here, work, and then go back to your own country. But, before all of that we really do need to get employees from the ranks of the unemployed and have the farmers pay them good wages and benefits. That's not going to hurt anyone! If you have to pay $1.99 for a pound of tomatoes up from $1.69 big deal. If the supermarkets can't sell "lettuce" like people use for an example for "$8 a head" they're not going to let it sit there and rot. Produce in the U.S. is incredibly cheap! I think this should be about putting Americans to work at good wages.

Fightdirecto -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 6:59:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet There are a lot of poor, desperate unemployed people in this country right now. I can't see any reason why they can't do agricultural work. It makes little sense to incur both the social costs of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, and continue to pay unemployment endlessly. Sounds like there are some jobs in Alabama. But many of those "poor, desperate unemployed people" live in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or St. Louis, or Atlanta, or New Orleans, or Seattle - they don't live in rural Alabama. How are they supposed to get to East Armpit, Alabama to pick those tomatoes for minimum wage? Hitch-hike a thousand miles?

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:07:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Those who are physically able, you offer them those jobs. If they refuse, it will reflect negatively on their benefits. Why not just let the people willing to do it, do it? People cross the desert,swim across the Rio Grande to do this shit, and it's no easy life, the life expectancy of an agricultural worker is about 50, but presumably, it's better than they can do elsewhere, or they wouldn't be doing it either. Supply and demand, man, supply and demand. Sounds like another sop for agribusiness to me, that's one way to get rid of the competition for rock hard, machine picked, GM tomato product.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:09:05 AM)
RRIGGHHTT genius. That is about as smart as the guy who said all unemployed people didn't have cars and couldn't get to the fields. Really? Thanks for the insight. Let me explain it in the simplest possible terms. No doubt there are some unemployed people in rural Alabama. Maybe quite a few, things being what they are. Some of them might even have transportation. Voila! If they really, really wanted to work, they could get a job in the fields. No long commute from Seattle necessary. Jesus, are some of you people really that out of touch? You think unemployment is only in urban areas? You should get out of town more. quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet There are a lot of poor, desperate unemployed people in this country right now. I can't see any reason why they can't do agricultural work. It makes little sense to incur both the social costs of turning a blind eye to illegal immigration, and continue to pay unemployment endlessly. Sounds like there are some jobs in Alabama. But many of those "poor, desperate unemployed people" live in Chicago, or Los Angeles, or St. Louis, or Atlanta, or New Orleans, or Seattle - they don't live in rural Alabama. How are they supposed to get to East Armpit, Alabama to pick those tomatoes for minimum wage? Hitch-hike a thousand miles?

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:16:56 AM)
I've done ag work, tree planting, it'sa whole new definition of work, and white people don't last - it's piecework, you get paid according to productivity, work sunup till it's too dark to work, yo uhave to be fast, but quality matters, so it takes considerable finesse as well. You have no idea how much finesse it takes to plant a Loblolly, the tip of the root has to be buried deeply and absolutely straight, if it's bent, then it grows sideways, or right straight bakc up out of the ground (J root) - now do that 5000 times a day, in December, in the rain, through brambles and deadfalls, or get the fuck off my crew. It's elite work, and most other ag jobs are the same, cane cutting, picking - it's not for the weak.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:23:55 AM)
Shit, the company I worked for got sued for human rights violations, lol, and that's just doing the job, you can't make money if you don't do it that way. If fucking Mexicans complain about it, there is no fucking way your lillywhite ass is gonna keep up. You're gonna tell a bunch of white people to do this, those farmers might as well pack it in now, because I'm telling you can't do it, you don't have the skills, the physical conditioning or the sheer will it takes to make it economical.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:25:55 AM)
Actually, I have done ag work too. Detasseling corn in Indiana, ranch work in Wyoming. Detasseling corn doesn't take a lot of finesse, some ranch work does. For example, it takes a steady hand to brand and castrate a calf. I imagine picking tomatoes is more like detasseling corn than planting Loblolly (whatever the hell that is). Not much finesse required. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I've done ag work, tree planting, it'sa whole new definition of work, and white people don't last - it's piecework, you get paid according to productivity, work sunup till it's too dark to work, yo uhave to be fast, but quality matters, so it takes considerable finesse as well. You have no idea how much finesse it takes to plant a Loblolly, the tip of the root has to be buried deeply and absolutely straight, if it's bent, then it grows sideways, or right straight bakc up out of the ground (J root) - now do that 5000 times a day, in December, in the rain, through brambles and deadfalls, or get the fuck off my crew. It's elite work, and most other ag jobs are the same, cane cutting, picking - it's not for the weak.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:31:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Actually, I have done ag work too. Detasseling corn in Indiana, ranch work in Wyoming. Detasseling corn doesn't take a lot of finesse, some ranch work does. For example, it takes a steady hand to brand and castrate a calf. I imagine picking tomatoes is more like detasseling corn than planting Loblolly (whatever the hell that is). Not much finesse required. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I've done ag work, tree planting, it'sa whole new definition of work, and white people don't last - it's piecework, you get paid according to productivity, work sunup till it's too dark to work, yo uhave to be fast, but quality matters, so it takes considerable finesse as well. You have no idea how much finesse it takes to plant a Loblolly, the tip of the root has to be buried deeply and absolutely straight, if it's bent, then it grows sideways, or right straight back up out of the ground (J root) - now do that 5000 times a day, in December, in the rain, through brambles and deadfalls, or get the fuck off my crew. It's elite work, and most other ag jobs are the same, cane cutting, picking - it's not for the weak. Tell me that after you pick tomatoes for a season, Corn doesn't bruise easily for one thing, you ever accidentally squash an ear of Corn? They don't pay you for that one.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:34:20 AM)
Sure xssve, you are probably right. Let the tomatoes rot in the field because people who are not illegal immigrants are both too good and not good enough to do the job. Meanwhile, these same people are losing their homes and can't feed their kids. It makes no sense to me.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:38:56 AM)
quote: IMO, the “Law Of Unintended Consequences” will kick in regarding this latest anti-illegal-immigrant law – many Alabama farmers will go out of business and food prices nation-wide will go up. The new anti-illegal-immigrant law will not result in unemployed or under-employed Alabama citizens rushing out of the towns and cities to take jobs in the fields picking tomatoes, lettuce, sweet potatoes, etc. by hand for minimum wage. I have heard the mantra "supply and demand" chanted by the faithful ad nauseum. Well now that "supply and demand" is at hand the mantra seems to have been muted. Perhaps in a land where there is a free labor force(the right for labor to organize is endemic to free labor), wages will reflect "supply and demand".

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:42:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Sure xssve, you are probably right. Let the tomatoes rot in the field because people who are not illegal immigrants are both too good and not good enough to do the job. Meanwhile, these same people are losing their homes and can't feed their kids. It makes no sense to me. You said it, I didn't - you'd rather it rot than pay a Mexican do it, that's your priorities so get picken', I have a new line of work. In other words, nobody's stopping you, so get to it.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:49:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl How many illegals do you honestly believe are paid minimum? This info is 20 years old when I was teaching in FL. I don't know that they were illegals but I do know that the parents of some of the kids in my classes were migrant workers making over minimum wage. How do you know this? What percentage of them were making more than minimum wage? How much more than minimum wage? I'd asume that a LOT of them were illegals. An assumption is like an opinion...that is somethiing you believe with no validation. As I said. Those who are physically able and drawing benefits. Offer them the job. If they refuse, it should reflect negatively. If a welfare recipient refuses to work for sub minimum wage they should be cut off fom their benifits....that is called slavery and has been illegal in my country for quite some time I've worked that hard in the past for damn little money and it didn't kill me. Picking tomatoes during summer vacation from hi-school would certainly give you the required background for your puerile interptation of stoop labor.

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