RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan

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tazzygirl -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:11:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Again, I said it was my experience, first hand. As i also said, your mileage may vary. You do know what that means, yes? I pointed out that you were full of shit...you know what that means,yes? Yeah, it mean you living in a fantasy world again. Tell me... exactly what are you doing for these people beyond bitching on a message board? Pictures backed up what I said. Not my fault you hate being wrong.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Again, I said it was my experience, first hand. As i also said, your mileage may vary. You do know what that means, yes? I pointed out that you were full of shit...you know what that means,yes? Yeah, it mean you living in a fantasy world again. No it means that you are full of shit. Tell me... exactly what are you doing for these people beyond bitching on a message board? What the fuck has that got to do with this discussion???please try to stay on topic. If you want to start a thread on who does what to help whom then please feel free to do so. Pictures backed up what I said. Your pictures don't back up shit. You said: quote: The illegals I have worked with all were plump and sassy. Guess your mileage varies. I said: You obviously do not know many field hands, which is what we are discussing. Not my fault you hate being wrong. You keep beating your strawman...You said: quote: You are assuming everyone is gaunt and malnourished who works fields.. You are full of shit. You are arguing against something you claim I am assuming. I have asked you to show where I have made that assumption. So far you have been unable to do so.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 7:59:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx The basic falacy in your arguement is that u.s. citizens don't have to put up with that shit. "you pay me my wages,you remit the witholding tax to the govt or I will send your punk ass to jail". If you are illegal they call the cops and deport you...Citizenship carries certain rights. Sure. Because everyone who goes looking for a job with the farmers has the ability to say, "pay me this, on the books, and if you don't I will report you." Given how long this has been going on, what in your fantasy world, makes you believe that someone would suddenly take this position? quote: Why do you assume that "they(fellow u.s. citizens)" would be of that criminal mindset? Would you commit such a fraud? Do you have any idea of the statistic on people who take off the books employment while collecting unemployment benefits? More than FOURTEEN MILLION dollars in 2010. Why do people do it? Perhaps because the off the books job isn't going to last. Maybe they are trying to catch up on expenses they can't meet getting less than 60% of their previous salary. Maybe they just want the money. Point is, thinking it wouldn't happen is pure fantasy.

Masta808 -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 8:39:44 PM)
Nah they dont need a bank loan. The Farmers wont hire Americans since they are unemployed and therefore lazy. They rather let their crops die than hire the unemployed at beneficial wages.

tazzygirl -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 8:47:28 PM)
Thank you for allowing me to visit your fantasy world... now back to reality.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/11/2011 9:39:21 PM)
This is ridiculous - we deport people who want to work, then try to force people who don't want to work to do so. If they want to work, legalize them, then they'll have to pay taxes to pay for all the anglos to sit around on their butts and complain they can't find a job. See? Everybody's happy.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 4:36:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx The basic falacy in your arguement is that u.s. citizens don't have to put up with that shit. "you pay me my wages,you remit the witholding tax to the govt or I will send your punk ass to jail". If you are illegal they call the cops and deport you...Citizenship carries certain rights. Sure. Because everyone who goes looking for a job with the farmers has the ability to say, "pay me this, on the books, and if you don't I will report you." Given how long this has been going on, what in your fantasy world, makes you believe that someone would suddenly take this position? Illegals cannot do that citizens can. What part of that do you not understand? quote: Why do you assume that "they(fellow u.s. citizens)" would be of that criminal mindset? Would you commit such a fraud? Do you have any idea of the statistic on people who take off the books employment while collecting unemployment benefits? More than FOURTEEN MILLION dollars in 2010. Statistically how does 14 milion factor into the u.s. economy? Why do people do it? Perhaps because the off the books job isn't going to last. Maybe they are trying to catch up on expenses they can't meet getting less than 60% of their previous salary. Maybe they just want the money. Point is, thinking it wouldn't happen is pure fantasy. Point is thinking it will happen means you think evryone is as crooked as you.

thishereboi -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 5:44:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet My days of ag work are behind me. I am neither unemployed or in danger of losing my house, or anything else. I still don't see how it makes economic sense to not have people who need jobs do this type of work. I can't remember ever saying I would rather it rot. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Sure xssve, you are probably right. Let the tomatoes rot in the field because people who are not illegal immigrants are both too good and not good enough to do the job. Meanwhile, these same people are losing their homes and can't feed their kids. It makes no sense to me. You said it, I didn't - you'd rather it rot than pay a Mexican do it, that's your priorities so get picken', I have a new line of work. In other words, nobody's stopping you, so get to it. Either Mexicans pick it or it rots - there is no fairy dust that will generate some magical third option that will make the problem go away. Actually a third option would be to pay competitive wages to attract legal workers. Or they could make all the current illegals legal, but then they would expect to be paid a fair wage also and we would be in basically the same spot. All the ones who we just legalized will go out and get decent jobs and the farmers will still want illegals so they don't have to pay more. Pick one or the other - you pick one, the other follows axiomatically; it's called "cause and effect". Own it or shut up, you can't have it both ways. And the only people on welfare these days are Children under 5 for the most part, I suppose we should get those no-workin' motherfuckers to pick the tomatoes. Oh yea, I was totally amazed when I drove by the local welfare office and saw all those 3 and 4 year olds standing in line waiting for their checks. I wonder what their parents are doing for money[8\|]

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 8:26:05 AM)
Sure but that just means that farmers will have to compete with foreign produce from abroad, which will then be cheaper, because their labor costs are cheaper. You don't seem to realize that this is all about a global economy now, we're competing with the entire world, and that is incompatible with the traditional isolationism of the right. But the republican party represents business interests, specifically corporate multinationals including multinational banks ('cause that's where the big money is, and campaigning costs money, simple math), and that means globalization, whatever else they tell you or however they try to associate it with liberals or sinister conspiracies. They love illegal Mexicans, it's cheap labor, and currently, when it comes to the supply side of the question, it's all about maximizing margins by lowering variable costs - that means if they can make more money somewhere where labor is cheaper, that's where you'll find your job, if you go work one day and can't find it. So they lie to you, and it's gonna be that way until either our wages go down, or the rest of the worlds go up. When it comes to that, expansion of the labor supply period is good news for producers, it's supply and demand: more people competing in the job market drives wages down and increases the choices - it's a buyers market in labor, and the multinationals intend to keep it that way as long as they possibly can - you know nothing of European history? Lemme tall ya, it's neither capitalist nor democratic, it's feudalism, and a lot of people miss that. But like it or not, this is unregulated capitalism at it's finest, and if you don't let Mexicans in to it here (regulation!), the farms will simply move to Mexico - where the labor is, and it's already largely a feudal economy.

mnottertail -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 8:28:24 AM)
foreign produce is unlikely to catch on, it has such a short shelf life.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 8:33:04 AM)
It's also the reason for the huge ag subsidies - if industrial farming and GM agribusiness is so much better, why do they requires such record breaking subsidies? One reason, is that by dumping cheap grain on the market they can tank emerging competitive agricultural economies by knocking the bottom out of commodities prices, and protects ADM and Monsanto's profit margins. There is a huge game of poker going on globally, so you better watch the cards, 'cause they ain't askin' you.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 8:35:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail foreign produce is unlikely to catch on, it has such a short shelf life. Funny, a lot of it already is though. I shop at the local farmers market, enough of the arable land around here is in small, isolated tracts that it's not attractive to agribusiness.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 9:56:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Sure but that just means that farmers will have to compete with foreign produce from abroad, which will then be cheaper, because their labor costs are cheaper. So what? You don't seem to realize that this is all about a global economy now, we're competing with the entire world, and that is incompatible with the traditional isolationism of the right. We are not talking isolationism we are talking about illegal aliens being paid low wages and what the repercussions might be if agribiz had to pay labor what it is worth. But the republican party represents business interests, specifically corporate multinationals including multinational banks ('cause that's where the big money is, and campaigning costs money, simple math), and that means globalization, whatever else they tell you or however they try to associate it with liberals or sinister conspiracies. They love illegal Mexicans, it's cheap labor, and currently, when it comes to the supply side of the question, it's all about maximizing margins by lowering variable costs - that means if they can make more money somewhere where labor is cheaper, that's where you'll find your job, if you go work one day and can't find it. It is pretty diffcult to outsource a few thousand acres to a foriegn country. So they lie to you, and it's gonna be that way until either our wages go down, or the rest of the worlds go up. When it comes to that, expansion of the labor supply period is good news for producers, it's supply and demand: more people competing in the job market drives wages down and increases the choices - it's a buyers market in labor, All that is necessary to stop that is to enforce the law that says that if you hire someone who has crossed the boarder illegally you are subject to a $250,000 fine and 5 years in the federal pen for each illegal. Any city cop or county constable can make the arrest. and the multinationals intend to keep it that way as long as they possibly can - you know nothing of European history? Lemme tall ya, it's neither capitalist nor democratic, it's feudalism, and a lot of people miss that. No it is capitalism. In feudalism you have to feed the serfs. But like it or not, this is unregulated capitalism at it's finest, Unregulated capitalism at it's worst I would think. and if you don't let Mexicans in to it here (regulation!), the farms will simply move to Mexico - where the labor is, and it's already largely a feudal economy. So what you are saying is if we do not reinstitut slavery our economy will crumble?

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:11:45 AM)
The situation is what it is, that's what I'm saying: argue about it all you want, the laws of supply and demand will apply regardless of how convincing and cunning your rhetoric.

mnottertail -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:13:14 AM)
Perhaps we need to go to tomatoless tuesdays.......

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:15:19 AM)
I think there is one thing you aren't taking into account, and that is that agriculture requires more than just cheap labor. It also requires plentiful and cheap water. At least in the western US, this required expensive and government funded infrastructure, such as the dams and irrigation delivery systems. The Imperial Valley would still be a desert if this hadn't happened. This is all heavily subsidized and required an enormous investment that I somehow don't see Mexico being able to pay for. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve But like it or not, this is unregulated capitalism at it's finest, and if you don't let Mexicans in to it here (regulation!), the farms will simply move to Mexico - where the labor is, and it's already largely a feudal economy.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:25:32 AM)
And in economic terms, keeping farm workers out is protectionism, not free market, it's regulation, but not very sensible regulation if you're driving people out of business - the farmer has a job too, and probably employes more than just pickers, he has equipment to maintain, and so forth. i.e., those immigrants are creating jobs. There are Three things that result in economic growth, in no particular order: infrastructure, which expands markets and creates opportunities where they previously didn't exist, and included regulation that protects ethical business from unfair competition, and education that supplies adequately skilled labor. Technological innovation which creates new products, methods of manufacture and distribution, efficiency gains, etc. And, the economy grows more or less automatically with population growth, regardless of where they are from, there are more people making things, buying and selling goods and services to each other, and that creates more jobs. The economy technically doubles every time the population doubles, has happened every decade since records have been kept on the subject - the only exception was the Eighties, when it didn't quite double, due to the gutting of family farms, industry and retail. The "Reagan miracle" is actually a bit of a dip on the economic growth curve by historical standards, it only looks good if you don't compare it to previous or subsequent decades.

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:27:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet I think there is one thing you aren't taking into account, and that is that agriculture requires more than just cheap labor. It also requires plentiful and cheap water. At least in the western US, this required expensive and government funded infrastructure, such as the dams and irrigation delivery systems. The Imperial Valley would still be a desert if this hadn't happened. This is all heavily subsidized and required an enormous investment that I somehow don't see Mexico being able to pay for. quote: ORIGINAL: xssve But like it or not, this is unregulated capitalism at it's finest, and if you don't let Mexicans in to it here (regulation!), the farms will simply move to Mexico - where the labor is, and it's already largely a feudal economy. It depends on the economics, they get a lot of rain in Brazil, America isn't the only country that immigrants go to, a lot of countries compete for them - we compete with China for scientists for example, and lately, we've been losing.

thompsonx -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:28:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve The situation is what it is, that's what I'm saying: argue about it all you want, the laws of supply and demand will apply regardless of how convincing and cunning your rhetoric. The situation is that no one seems to have the balls to enforce the law. It is not a question of the feds doing anything. It is against the law and any cop can arrest the ceo and the whole board of directors of the corp. that is employing them. You seem to be saying that bank robbery is a big business and we should not arrest them because that would destroy their industry. You state that "the law of supply and demand" will apply regardless. Really!!!how does that work? There is a world wide rice shortage. The "law of supply and demand" would indicate that the rice will go to the highest bidder. Is that correct by your understanding of the "law of supply and demand"?

xssve -> RE: Want a tomato with your salad? Get a bank loan (10/12/2011 10:51:37 AM)
Uh no, maybe for you it is, but for the real world the quesiton is about whether this is a regulation that increases market efficiency or just adds a bunch of red tape and enforcement costs, and results in diseconomy rather than economic growth by failing to take into account real world market conditions. The "illegal immigration" issue is a social conservative red herring that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with race/identity politics. Cons always Cherry pick when it comes to regulation, usually favoring social issues over economic ones, often at the expense of economic growth: stem cell research, alternative energy research, etc., and that has cost this country jobs and the technological edge we need to create new jobs. Reagan is considered a protectionist, not a free trader, he passed more tariffs than anybody. Really this whole recession/depression is just exactly what conservatives asked for, cause and effect, I predicted it back in 2000, this ain't magic, it's a science, the dismal science, but a science.

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