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First they came... - 10/9/2011 6:55:12 PM

servinggirlwntd

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Joined: 2/22/2011
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THe recent decision, by the Obama administration, that they were free to execute Americans without bothering with formal, outdated niceties like trials, made me wonder if a rubicon has been crossed.
Supreme court justice Brandeis once wrote:
Decency, security, and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subjected to the same rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of the government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.

TO paraphrase:
first they decided they could kill those they named as terrorists without bothering with due process of law because they were a "danger to the American state" and we did not protest because we aren't terrorists. Then they decided to kill child molesters without trial because they are worse than murderers, but we did not protest because they were disgusting and who wanted to bother with trials. Then they decided they could kill drug dealers without a trial because they were killers and we did not protest because we did not deal drugs. Then they decided that they would kill the sexual deviants who liked to beat one another or be beaten, because they were undermining the moral fabric of our great country.

We need to take our freedoms back, before it is too late.
We need a president who believes that our rights are truly inalienable.
Benjamin Franklin said it well:
Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

< Message edited by servinggirlwntd -- 10/9/2011 6:58:53 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/9/2011 6:58:13 PM

servinggirlwntd

Posts: 26
Joined: 2/22/2011
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...

< Message edited by servinggirlwntd -- 10/9/2011 6:59:15 PM >

(in reply to servinggirlwntd)

Post #: 2

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/9/2011 7:52:41 PM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

What the hell are you talking about? Because if you are talking about hunting down Al Qaeda members like the dogs they are, I believe that is the single best thing Obama has done in his whole presidency. And by the way, your paraphrase is very insulting to victims of the holocaust.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to servinggirlwntd)

Post #: 3

RE: First they came... - 10/9/2011 8:10:08 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Interesting facts behind that quote.

1) It was a dissenting opinion.

2) it was about wire tapping phone lines

3) it was during the time of prohibition

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0277_0438_ZD.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to servinggirlwntd)

Post #: 4

RE: First they came... - 10/9/2011 9:28:09 PM

farglebargle

Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline

quote:

We need a president who believes that our rights are truly inalienable.

And who is that going to be?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 5

RE: First they came... - 10/9/2011 9:46:36 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

Your quote is a tad bit off....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to servinggirlwntd)

Post #: 6

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/9/2011 11:46:59 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

What the hell are you talking about? Because if you are talking about hunting down Al Qaeda members like the dogs they are, I believe that is the single best thing Obama has done in his whole presidency. And by the way, your paraphrase is very insulting to victims of the holocaust.

Obama didn't do anything.
Good job Navy Seals.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 7

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/10/2011 12:05:44 AM

Iamsemisweet

Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

Sure Popeye. You keep believing that. Even the Wall Street Journal, not well known as a liberal rag, made it clear that the decision making, resources, and drive came straight from the top. Not giving credit where credit is due just makes you look like an idiot.
Good job Obama, and thanks to the Seals too.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 8

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 12:10:48 AM

DeviantlyD

Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

We need a president who believes that our rights are truly inalienable.

And who is that going to be?

quote:

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserv

*LOL* Exactly.

_____________________________

ExiledTyrant's groupie. Catering to his ego since May 26, 2007. :D

(in reply to farglebargle)

Post #: 9

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/10/2011 12:11:28 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Considering its owned by Murdock.............

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 10

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/10/2011 5:22:49 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

This is kind of funny since the Bush Administration decided that torture was a way of gathering information, which the op makes no mention of. You cannot pick and choose which presidents are guilty of stepping outside the law.

Now, for a few facts.

Anwar al-Awlaki was never indicted for treason. He was wanted for his activities against the United States and in support of Al Qaeda. His activities were well documented.

However, in this case, he was basically executed without even the indictment of a crime.
That in and of itself sets a precedent that I am not sure I would have wanted set, or acted on.

Adam Yahiye Gadahn was on October 11, 2006 indicted based on the testimony of the FBI case agent E.J. Hilbert II, in the Southern Division of the United States District Court for the Central District of California by a federal grand jury for the capital crime of treason for aiding an enemy of the United States (i.e. Al-Qaeda). Gadahn is the first American charged with treason since Tomoya Kawakita in 1952.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 11

RE: FIrst they came... - 10/10/2011 5:24:52 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

What the hell are you talking about? Because if you are talking about hunting down Al Qaeda members like the dogs they are, I believe that is the single best thing Obama has done in his whole presidency. And by the way, your paraphrase is very insulting to victims of the holocaust.

Obama didn't do anything.
Good job Navy Seals.

bush gave up on bin-laden.Closed the bin-laden unit of the CIA........FAIL!!!

President Obama odered Panetta to go after bin-laden......success.

It`s about leadership Pops,something you`ve forgotten....or never learned about.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 12

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 5:52:48 AM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servinggirlwntd

TO paraphrase:
first they decided they could kill those they named as terrorists without bothering with due process of law because they were a "danger to the American state" and we did not protest because we aren't terrorists. Then they decided to kill child molesters without trial because they are worse than murderers, but we did not protest because they were disgusting and who wanted to bother with trials. Then they decided they could kill drug dealers without a trial because they were killers and we did not protest because we did not deal drugs. Then they decided that they would kill the sexual deviants who liked to beat one another or be beaten, because they were undermining the moral fabric of our great country.

The problem with paraphrasing is that it always contains bias. When done by an individual with an obvious lack of understanding of the law, you end up with someone spouting ignorant bullshit like this that they couldn't possibly back up with actual court related documents that prove your "paraphrasing."

(in reply to servinggirlwntd)

Post #: 13

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 5:53:02 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

Your quote is a tad bit off....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

The version you're referring to was used as the motto on the title page of that work. The actual quote occurred a few years earlier, around 1775, with the original quote believed to be

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Nitpicking maybe, but if we're going to be picking nits, let's pick them where they lie.

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 14

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 6:31:17 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)

This is often misquoted as "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety...". The version here is the correct one from the original source. (Corrected here 10/05/2006) [note by Michael Moncur, October 05, 2006]

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/1381.html

In 1755 (Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, Tue, Nov 11, 1755), Franklin wrote: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

This phrasing was also the motto in Historical Review of Pennsylvania, attributed to Franklin

It's important to note that this sentiment, with many variations, was much used in the Revolutionary period by Franklin and others.

http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htm

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?tocvol=6

The actual Paper Franklin wrote.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 15

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 6:49:36 AM

StrangerThan

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Joined: 4/25/2008
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From your link

2. Franklin’s Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775
... Satisfaction. Art 14. The Judges should receive nothing from the King. As to the other two Acts, The Massachusetts must suffer all the Hazards and Mischiefs of War, rather than admit the Alteration of their Charters and Laws by Parliament. They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. B Franklin ...

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 6:58:12 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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In fine, we have the most sensible Concern for the poor distressed Inhabitants of the Frontiers. We have taken every Step in our Power, consistent with the just Rights of the Freemen of Pennsylvania, for their Relief, and we have Reason to believe, that in the Midst of their Distresses they themselves do not wish us to go farther. Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Such as were inclined to defend themselves, but unable to purchase Arms and Ammunition, have, as we are informed, been supplied with both, as far as Arms could be procured, out of Monies given by the last Assembly for the King’s Use; and the large Supply of Money offered by this Bill, might enable the Governor to do every Thing else that should be judged necessary for their farther Security, if he shall think fit to accept it.

http://franklinpapers.org/franklin/framedVolumes.jsp?tocvol=6

Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor
Printed in Votes and Proceedings of the House of Representatives, 1755-1756 (Philadelphia, 1756), pp. 19-21.
[November 11, 1755]

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 17

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 7:07:24 AM

StrangerThan

Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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Again, from your source:

Franklin’s Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) AD and copy: Library of Congress No 15 [February 17, 1775] Page 1. line 7 [line 4 of Article 1]. in consequence of that Engagement, all the Boston and Massachusetts Acts to be suspended, and on Compliance with that Engagement to be totally repeal’d. By this Amendment Article 4th. will become unnecessary. Art. 4 and 5 The numerous Petitions heretofore sent home by the Colony Assemblies, and either refused to be received, or received and neglected, or answered harshly and the Petitioners rebuk’d for making them, have I conceive totally discourag’d that Method of Application, and if even their Friends were now to propose to them the recurring again to Petitioning, such Friends would be thought to trifle with them. Besides, all they desire is now before Government in the Petition of the Congress, and the whole or Parts may be granted or refused at Pleasure. The Sense of the Colonies cannot be better obtained by Petitions from different Colonies, than it is by that general Petition. Art. 7 Read, such as they may think necessary. Art. 11. As it stands, of little Importance. The first Proposition was that they should be repealed as unjust. But they may remain, for they will probably not be executed. Even with the Amendment propos’d above to Article 1. I cannot think it stands as it should do. If the Object be merely the preventing present Bloodshed, and the other Mischiefs to fall on that Country in War, it may possibly answer that End. But if a thorough hearty Reconciliation is wish’d for, all Cause of Heart-burning should be remov’d, and strict Justice be done on both Sides. Thus the Tea should not only be paid for on the Side of Boston, but the Damage done to Boston by the Port Act should be repair’d, because it was done contrary to the Custom of all Nations Savage as well as civiliz’d, of first demanding Satisfaction. Art 14. The Judges should receive nothing from the King. As to the other two Acts, The Massachusetts must suffer all the Hazards and Mischiefs of War, rather than admit the Alteration of their Charters and Laws by Parliament. They who can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. B Franklin

_____________________________

--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 18

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 7:09:10 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Problem is, Stranger, You claimed the version I posted was wrong. Obviously it isnt. My post was to show you the paper trail I went through to find the one I posted.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 19

RE: First they came... - 10/10/2011 7:37:37 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

Your quote is a tad bit off....

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

The version you're referring to was used as the motto on the title page of that work. The actual quote occurred a few years earlier, around 1775, with the original quote believed to be

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Nitpicking maybe, but if we're going to be picking nits, let's pick them where they lie.

Maybe when you nitpick next time, you should be a bit more thorough.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to StrangerThan)

Post #: 20

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