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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 8:30:01 AM

GreedyTop

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maybe not.. I read a lot of stuff with a more "suspension" back when than I do now..

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 8:33:02 AM

Moonhead

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Understandable. I missed a lot of the puns in the Asterix books as a kid...

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 8:45:47 AM

GreedyTop

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Asterix.. I think I kinda remember that.. had a kinda funky hat>?

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 12:36:57 PM

Moonhead

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That's him. Blond ancient Gaul with a 'tache and a taste for roughing up Romans.

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 10/13/2011 12:37:19 PM >

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 12:53:15 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I liked Farnhams Freehold, too :)

It's a bit racist though, innit?

Both Sixth Column and Farnham's Freehold have racist themes. Some would argue the point of Farnham's was that any group finding itself on top of the social structure would act badly to groups under it. However the black society portrayed in Farnham's goes a bit far if that was the point RAH was trying to make.

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 6:17:10 PM

samboct

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You might take another crack at Stranger in a Strange Land- it's an allegory, and I think you missed the point. Mike the Martian is Jesus Christ- didn't the title headings get you thinking that way? It's not like it's much of a stretch to figure that one out.

DK

Not sure if I agree with the racist themes in Sixth Column- sounds like an attempt at combat talk more than anything. Once you buy the premise that Japan/China would want to invade the US (and close to post WWII with Communist China becoming a nuclear power) then I'm hard pressed to remember anything that would be overtly racist. Recall that Japanese treatment of prisoners and the Chinese during WWII was not exactly Geneva convention behavior and that Japan has been historically a rather racist country, it's kind of hard to portray them as an enemy as politically correct. Given the time he was writing, not sure anything leaps out as overtly racist from an authors perspective.

Don't recall what you're referring to in Farnham's Freehold, but I'd say Friday certainly had a different perspective on racism and the protagonist in that novel was anything but based on her actions.

It's always tough to really pull what an author believes based on their characters actions. When you get into writing a character, you can identify with them and their attitudes become yours if you're going to express their thoughts authentically. So in FF- what are the odds of a rich white guy with a fortress being prejudiced towards blacks? The author's asides can be more indicative, but a lot of novels don't really use the omniscient perspective and having not read this novel in probably 20 years, I'd be hard pressed to be definitive- but there was nothing that struck me at the time.

Sam

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 7:12:33 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've not read it for a long time myself, but it only takes the blacks about ten years to revert to savagery while Pa Farnham and his brood are still living like the Waltons...

Savagery? Are you talking about the cannibalism?

In the future the blacks were the chosen race and the whites were the slaves.

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 8:57:41 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Imperatrixx

You might take another crack at Stranger in a Strange Land- it's an allegory, and I think you missed the point. Mike the Martian is Jesus Christ- didn't the title headings get you thinking that way? It's not like it's much of a stretch to figure that one out.

DK

Not sure if I agree with the racist themes in Sixth Column- sounds like an attempt at combat talk more than anything. Once you buy the premise that Japan/China would want to invade the US (and close to post WWII with Communist China becoming a nuclear power) then I'm hard pressed to remember anything that would be overtly racist. Recall that Japanese treatment of prisoners and the Chinese during WWII was not exactly Geneva convention behavior and that Japan has been historically a rather racist country, it's kind of hard to portray them as an enemy as politically correct. Given the time he was writing, not sure anything leaps out as overtly racist from an authors perspective.

RAH himself considered Sixth Column to be racist, see his foreword to Solution unsatisfactory in Expanded Universe.

quote:

Don't recall what you're referring to in Farnham's Freehold, but I'd say Friday certainly had a different perspective on racism and the protagonist in that novel was anything but based on her actions.

It's always tough to really pull what an author believes based on their characters actions. When you get into writing a character, you can identify with them and their attitudes become yours if you're going to express their thoughts authentically. So in FF- what are the odds of a rich white guy with a fortress being prejudiced towards blacks? The author's asides can be more indicative, but a lot of novels don't really use the omniscient perspective and having not read this novel in probably 20 years, I'd be hard pressed to be definitive- but there was nothing that struck me at the time.

I'm not saying RAH was a racist his entire life or even when he wrote these two novels. His views clearly moderated by the 70's when he wrote Friday.

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/13/2011 9:56:57 PM

ourmsbetty

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Um... *cough* that's Robert A. Heinlein.

And if you are comparing anyone to him I hope you mean it as a complement.

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/14/2011 12:48:14 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty
Um... *cough* that's Robert A. Heinlein.

Yes, that was indicated already, but I cannot edit the OP anymore :) .

quote:

ORIGINAL: ourmsbetty
And if you are comparing anyone to him I hope you mean it as a complement.

Not exactly. But neither as an insult.

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/14/2011 4:43:30 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've not read it for a long time myself, but it only takes the blacks about ten years to revert to savagery while Pa Farnham and his brood are still living like the Waltons...

Savagery? Are you talking about the cannibalism?

In the future the blacks were the chosen race and the whites were the slaves.

Of course I'm talking about the cannibalism. What else?

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RE: Robert E. Heinlein anybody? - 10/14/2011 8:54:45 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I've not read it for a long time myself, but it only takes the blacks about ten years to revert to savagery while Pa Farnham and his brood are still living like the Waltons...

Savagery? Are you talking about the cannibalism?

In the future the blacks were the chosen race and the whites were the slaves.

Of course I'm talking about the cannibalism. What else?

I'm pretty familiar with Farnham's Freehold, and I always took it just the opposite of "racist". To me, he is saying that the "exploited" and the "exploiters" isn't dependent upon the race, but the social factors at play in the society.

The culinary habits of the ruling "non-white" elite of that future was a metaphor for what the historical Western peoples have done to the non-white races for the last few hundred years.

Farnham himself was pretty much non-sexist and non-racist. He was death on idiots, however, including his own son and wife.

Firm

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