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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/16/2011 10:52:44 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

It's a noun.

Yes, it's a noun. But a noun can be the name of an action as well as an object. "She's a good fuck," for example.

I don't know if you were following earlier on, but xssve started this particular bit of weirdness by arguing...

"an establishment of religion..." what, "an establishment" like a bar?

A church is "an establishment", a building basically...

As you might expect, things went predictably downhill from there.

However, the use of "establishment" to name an action rather than an object has remained substantially unchanged from 1828 (the closest I could find to the time in which the Constitution was written) to the present, and in the context of the First Amendment cannot be understood otherwise:

1. The act of establishing, founding, ratifying or ordaining ~Webster's 1828 Dictionary
1. The act or an instance of establishing ~Dictionary.com
1. The action of establishing something ~Oxford Dictionary

Naturally, I admit that these observations suffer the shortcoming of being limited to English and may not pertain to xssveian or Spanglish.

K.

Yes, I caught the opening act. I consulted several sources, both online and from my miniscule library, in an attempt to understand just what tense, mood, and voice the verb "establishment" could be. I had not previously encountered a verb preceeded by the indefinite article "an", but I am hardly an authority with respect to all the quirks of the English language.

I suspected Willbur was wrong.

I was just about to take a snort from the bottle I keep in my desk drawer when this bleached-blonde dame with legs that went all the way up to her ass busted into my office.

"Oh, Nick, it's the OED! They say it's a noun!"

It was Dallas Alice, my secretary and part-time dictionary reader. She forgot how to use the intercom again. I'll have to remind her never to bust in while I'm working unless there's a client with cold, hard cash on the other side of my office door.

>cue cheesy organ music<
We will return after an important message from Loosener's Castor Oil Flakes to...
Nick Danger, Third Eye


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:47:06 AM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
buddhism, jainism, confucianism, taoism, samkhya & mimamsa hinduism, unitarian universalists, shamanists. they are religions and are, or can be, atheistic. so no, religion can't be defined as "not atheism" unless you're choosing to ignore reality.


i may be digging myself into an ever deeper grave, but here goes. Those certainly all can be atheistic. Personally, i would also consider them all to be religions. But is it possible to make ANY valid argument that they're not? Is it possible to find some definition of the word "religion" under which those don't qualify as "religions", but rather "philosophies" or "belief systems"? i think it's at least possible to make a good case that they're not religions.

pam


i admit it, i think this is bullshit. i admit it, i'm ashamed of myself for having said it.

pam


< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 10/17/2011 12:54:18 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 1:28:05 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Yes, it's a noun.

In Kiratean too? I am glad.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/17/2011 1:38:58 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 2:01:18 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		On a fully unrelated topic: My understanding of Spanglish is very bad. Some people think that it is only a mixture of English and Spanish - it is not, it gives English words Spanish meanings and the other way around, uses a specific dialect as "Spanish" root (mostly Mexican), violates the syntax and orthography of both languages and is slowly developing to a real new language, which is proper to Latin Americans in the South of the USA.
The sentence "Voy a comprar groserías" means in Spanish "I am going to buy curse words" (???). It is necessary for a Spaniard to know English and know that the sentence is in Spanglish, to understand it. This happens very often: the written texts of some rap songs in Spanglish are simply abstruse for any Spaniard, even the ones who know (Oxford) English and (Spaniard) Spanish perfectly well.
As a person interested on philology, this process is for me very interesting. The birth of a language in a time where so many of them are dying.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/17/2011 2:03:07 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 4:24:33 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

BTW: "An establishment" is always a noun. This is simple grammar. This is the reason why, in the sentence "An establishment is a verb" the verb is "is" and not "establishment", which is the subject of the sentence ("What is a noun?" "An establishment").

Or is English grammar so different...?

"An establishment ... " ... the act or an instance of establishing ... is the sense you are looking for, so yes, it can be an action word (verb) as well.

It's a noun.

I believe that it is a denominative verb from "establish".

But a very interesting question.  I didn't do all the historical research, but the "an" makes it more difficult.  I think the founders had a "religious establishment" in mind, but then used of the word as a verb.  This is really the province of a good etymologist, I think.

Firm


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 4:31:04 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		Firm, I am not doubting the meaning, I totally agree with you on this, but "to establish" is a verb in infinitive form and "establishment" is a noun. Please consult any school teacher. Any.

Or the frigging Oxford:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/establishment

quote:

establishmentPronunciation:/ɪˈstablɪʃm(ə)nt, ɛ-/  noun1 [mass noun] the action of establishing something or being established:the establishment of an independent government[count noun] archaic a marriage:her chief solicitude was to procure an affluent establishment for their daughter2 a business organization, public institution, or household:hotels or catering establishments3 (usually the Establishment)a group in a society exercising power and influence over matters of policy, opinion, or taste, and seen as resisting change:he scandalized the Establishment of his day[as modifier] :she became an establishment figure[with adjective or noun modifier] an influential group within a specified profession or area of activity:rumblings of discontent among the medical establishment4 (the Establishment or the Church Establishment)the ecclesiastical system organized by law. the Church of England or of Scotland.
Or the frigging Merrian-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/establishment

quote:

es·tab·lish·ment noun \i-ˈsta-blish-mənt\Definition of ESTABLISHMENT1 : something established: as a : a settled arrangement; especially : a code of laws b : established church c : a permanent civil or military organization d : a place of business or residence with its furnishings and staff e : a public or private institution 2 : an established order of society: as a often capitalized : a group of social, economic, and political leaders who form a ruling class (as of a nation) b often capitalized : a controlling group <the literary establishment> 3 a : the act of establishing b : the state of being established See establishment defined for English-language learners »See establishment defined for kids »


Stop debating the obvious, man!


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 4:37:53 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		Websters: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definitions/establishment
Noun 1. The act of forming or establishing something (...)

Longman: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/establishment
establishment noun (...)

Cambridge: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/establishment_1?q=establishment
establishment noun ( ORGANIZATION ) /ɪˈstæb.lɪʃ.mənt/

Are you able to give a point when given enough solid data and arguments, or it does not matter...?


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 6:28:03 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		SMM,

Yes, I can establish a trend from more than one data point.

I can also consider the possibility that "just because" numerous self-referential sources give the same data, this does not make it correct.

The English language, in particular is slippery, and the historical usage I leave open for some doubt, but in today's common usage (not that the word is used that commonly), a verb is "an action word" and a noun is "name word". 

We commonly take verbs and use them as nouns.  These are called gerunds.  You can look up the meaning of such a word, and the dictionary will often say "verb", not noun.

The opposite appears to be called a denominative verb i.e.  a noun used as a verb.  In this case, transformed by the suffix "-ment".

The confusion is increased, I believe, by the fact that there is some confusion between the words "Establishment" (noun) and "establish" (verb).  As I mentioned, I believe the word "an" before the word "establishment" in the clause is a matter of confusion because it is usually used in front of a noun, and consider that this may have been confusion on the part of the drafters, mixing the two thoughts of an "Establishment Religion" i.e. one approved by a government, and "the establishing of a religion".

I'm sure there is some legal Constitutional debate on that very issue, but I've not spent the time and effort to find it.

I willing to consider that I am incorrect, but simply declaring something doesn't make it so, especially in the English language.  This works both ways, however, in regards to the claims that an "action word" is somehow a noun, "just because" the dictionary says it is so.

In English, usage trumps dictionaries and has since Samuel Johnson.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 10/17/2011 6:54:56 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 6:52:40 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		Firm, consult any school teacher finally. That's about it.
I also "hide" you from now on. Sorry, but I think that inability to recognize any kind of error makes me not to worry about what you have to say. And this is not the first time I see that on you. Have a good life and a nice time here. Goodbye.
PS: I would have taken your "usage" argument more seriously if you had provided statistical evidence of it. Having provided none, you are like Humpty Dumpty - "I will redefine everything I need to avoid giving up in a point". It is ridiculous, sorry.


< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/17/2011 7:26:16 AM >

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 7:11:41 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Firm, consult any school teacher finally. That's about it.
I also "hide" you from now on. Sorry, but I think that inability to recognize any kind of error makes me not to worry about what you have to say. And this is not the first time I see that on you. Have a good life and a nice time here. Goodbye.




I guess I'm not part of the select group of ... what?  half the forum? ... who you can't discuss things with, unless we accept everything you say?

Ok, I take back my comment about your intelligence, when you first started posting.  Take that! 

Firm


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 9:38:53 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3643096

Well there is one thing I have to contest in that thread:
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
To be honest, Ishtarr, Im learning these concepts as they are introduced. I had no clue about pantheism or panentheism until tonight. I just know it as a nature based belief... nothing greater than nature.


"Nature, in the broadest sense, is equivalent to the natural world, physical world, or material world. "Nature" refers to the phenomena of the physical world, and also to life in general. It ranges in scale from the subatomic to the cosmic."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature

The problem with that statement is that nature doesn't include "the spirit" i.e. you hold at least one supernatural belief. This puts you at odds with the self identified atheist community in that it's made up of people holding positions such as naturalism and skepticism. So the idea of calling yourself an atheist might simply strike you as off because the atheists that you've been talking to hold a worldview in direct opposition to yours.

However it may also be the case that you are actually not an atheist, it all depends on this supernatural belief of yours. There are people who don't believe in any sort of higher power but do believe in oh say ghosts, if your belief falls into something akin to that you could be an atheist who believes in woo woo on the other hand if this "spirit" is just a different conseption of a deity....then your not really an atheist.

I think one of the things that probably muddied up your last discussion on the subject was the talk of Buddhists as atheists. While it's true that Buddhists can be atheists (Sam Harris being a famous example of a Buddhist atheist) most of the Buddhists that I've met I don't think fell into that category. You talk about karma, the Dalai Lama has written about karma (sorry I can't recall which book at the moment) as an internal thing, i.e. that your thoughts and actions shape who you are. In a non-supernatural neurological sense that is the case. However that's not what a lot of people mean when they say karma, if we are talking about karma as some sort supernatural force or being that's playing score keeper in our lives then I think that we've moved out of the realm of atheism.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 9:57:36 AM   
sillyhatsonly


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Status: offline 		I wonder if they are recognizing Atheism as a religion does that mean that Pastafarians will be recognized? 

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 11:12:31 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

The opposite appears to be called a denominative verb i.e.  a noun used as a verb.
Correct.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/451533

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:30:05 PM   
Moonhead


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If atheism is now a religion, does that mean I can claim tax exempt status for not going to church?

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:31:00 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I assume you might be able to write off mileage...

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:41:49 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		But if I'm not going to church, what milage is that?


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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:44:03 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I assume you might be able to write off mileage...

Would a new flyrod for sunday morning use be deductible?

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:44:30 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		For driving the extra roundabout to avoid the cathedrals, and the ever present Church of England.

I would assume you would have to motor all the way to Carlisle for groceries, for that.

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:48:00 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I'm buying my groceries from a wiccan co-op in Glastonbury, in fact. It's a bit of a trek and I eat most of that crap on the drive back...

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RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion - 10/17/2011 12:48:36 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I assume you might be able to write off mileage...

Would a new flyrod for sunday morning use be deductible?



If fridays are fish again and you're catholic, that would be clearly as deductable as vestments and the blood of christ (pint of mad dog 20/20 as the price basis)

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