RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (Full Version)

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crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:05:40 AM)

Fuck I hate it when that happens. Glad you reposted it.

Quality.



gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:07:02 AM)

Thanks.

pam



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:08:31 AM)

quote:

now I know I'm middle aged, because my first reaction was to say "well get to bed young lady"
Then stop being interesting!!!
quote:

We've go the definition that you schnuffled from the dictionary
It's SMM's definition. And see my previous post, perhaps we can go from that.

To summarize cleanly:

1. Theist: Accepts the existence of a god or gods.
2. Atheist: Rejects the existence of 'a god" or "gods".
3. Agnostic: Holds that the question isn't answerable or knowable.
4. Irreligious: Has no opinion for whatever reason.

Numbers 2, 3, & 4 are varieties of non-theistic views.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:12:06 AM)

Based on post #97, Pam and I are on the same page.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:15:00 AM)

quote:

Atheism is a disbelief that relates only to theology, not religion.
Theology is an aspect of religion.



crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:17:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
Then stop being interesting!!!


Pot, kettle? I may be keeping you from sleep, but your annoying habit of being interesting is keeping me from work ( I'd say "damn you to hell" but I'm an Evangelical Atheist).




For clarity - Is this the definition we agree to use?

quote:

refer to the following link: http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheist where the definition is as follows:
quote:

a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:20:36 AM)

I am satisfied with that one. It's from the Oxford dictionary, which is certainly reputable, and is the one SMM chose. I am willing to use any definition from any reputable dictionary if there is one you would prefer to use.



gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:25:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather
Based on post #97, Pam and I are on the same page.


Neener-neener suckers.



StrangerThan -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:36:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Grin, I envy you your clarity where it comes to the definition of "BELIEF"

I really, really struggle with the words think, believe, and know.

I believe X is true
I think X is true
I know X is true


It's pretty easy, actually.  As far as i'm concerned, there's virtually nothing in the "i know" category.

pam


Most arguments related to religion, for or against, boil down to one word for me - believe.

There's not much reason to go beyond that point because it is clearly and demonstrably subjective.





SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:47:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Atheism is NOT a lack of belief.  It is the belief that god does not exist.

Please check the definition of the Oxford dictionary and the analysis of it made for Heather.
After it, if you still think so, please explain how "does not choose A" equals C.
I think it is better to make a depth-first discussion here. I am willing and ready to analyse the rest of the posting but I think that if we resolve this first many other points may be rendered obsolete.



crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:47:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

I am satisfied with that one. It's from the Oxford dictionary, which is certainly reputable, and is the one SMM chose. I am willing to use any definition from any reputable dictionary if there is one you would prefer to use.


If we stick with this one.

And then go to your clean summary..

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

To summarize cleanly:

1. Theist: Accepts the existence of a god or gods.
2. Atheist: Rejects the existence of 'a god" or "gods".
3. Agnostic: Holds that the question isn't answerable or knowable.
4. Irreligious: Has no opinion for whatever reason.

Numbers 2, 3, & 4 are varieties of non-theistic views.


I instinctively want to agree with your definitions 1,2 and 3.

I think 4 is gnarly - I basically agree with it think it's kind of orthogonal. I can be an Irreligious Theist ("I believe in god, but all religion is bunk") or an Irreligious Atheist ("I don't believe in God, and all religion is bunk"). Some really pointy headed philosophers can even manage to be a religious atheist (<brain melts>).

So it seems to me the question rests on semantics (and that's so allowed, esp here in P&R)

quote:

"a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods"


I think this isn't the same as -
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Atheism is NOT a lack of belief.  It is the belief that god does not exist.  Whether you believe that god exists or you believe that he does not, in either case, you are still believing SOMETHING.  In other words, you're having faith that something is so, even you can't prove it.  That's called "believing", and what you have faith in is called your "belief".




And I prefer pam's definition.

According to the OED definition you can be "a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods" in two cases.

"I don't believe god exists" and "I believe that god does not exist"

Pam's is much more satisfying, it seems.

"I don't believe god exists" doesn't cut it by pams definition. And that satisfies me.

Only "I believe that god does not exist" makes the cut.

It's angels dancing on pinheads stuff, but if that's the definition we're using then logically both those statements apply. Now, at the risk of contradicting years of scholarly research by the OED, I think the definition feels wrong - and I think that yours is better but still doesn't feel like the jack pot.

And, to me, is the problem that the definitions have slipped



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:49:53 AM)

quote:


Atheism <doesn't exist>

Atheism is not B. It is "B or C". Recheck the Oxford definition and my analysis. Say where exactly it fails or give up the point.
quote:

To the question "Does God exist?" there are three possible answers:
A- To say yes.
B- To say no.
C- Not to say either yes or no. For whatever reason: You don't know or you don't think that the question makes sense, or whatever.

Atheist
= (Oxford) a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods
= a person who does not say "I believe in God"
= a person who does not choose A
= a person who chooses B or C
(not the same as) a person who chooses C

Strong Atheist take B.
Weak Atheist take C.
Atheist are (according to the Oxford dictionary) both the ones who take B, as the ones who take C.


Therefore Atheism is NOT <doesn't exist>.

Just for your information: Lack respect again and I will hide you. As simple as it is. You can consider my tone wrong. I can consider your tone wrong. But if you insult me again or degrade my writings with insults like "ridiculous", the conversation will stop there. You do not have to care about it, so don't start with that ("fuck you! why should I care?"). I am just informing you.



gungadin09 -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 3:57:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

"a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods"


I think this isn't the same as -
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Atheism is NOT a lack of belief.  It is the belief that god does not exist.  Whether you believe that god exists or you believe that he does not, in either case, you are still believing SOMETHING.  In other words, you're having faith that something is so, even you can't prove it.  That's called "believing", and what you have faith in is called your "belief".




And I prefer pam's definition.

According to the OED definition you can be "a person who does not believe in the existence of God or gods" in two cases.

"I don't believe god exists" and "I believe that god does not exist"

Pam's is much more satisfying, it seems.

"I don't believe god exists" doesn't cut it by pams definition. And that satisfies me.

Only "I believe that god does not exist" makes the cut.


Oh my goodness, i'm so confused. To me, "i don't believe god exists" and "i believe god does not exist" mean exactly the same thing.

pam



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:01:42 AM)

OK, regarding #4, a good definition of how i am using the word is from the first line of the Wiki page: Irreligion is defined as an absence of religion and/or an indifference towards religion.

Oxford defines it as:
quote:

indifferent or hostile to religion
and I am using it in the sense of indifferent.

I identify as irreligious, because I neither accept or reject any religious concept. I have absolutely no religious beliefs. I neither accept or reject the existence of god/gods. I neither believe nor disbelieve in anything. Now if you have a word you think would be better, I am willing to consider it.




crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:05:00 AM)

Taking the wiki definition that you've quoted. Then irreligion definitely covers "I neither accept or reject any religious concept. I have absolutely no religious beliefs." but it doesn't cover "I neither accept or reject the existence of god/gods."

I'd say that "I neither accept or reject the existence of god/gods" is totally covered by "agnostic", but that doesn't address "I neither accept or reject any religious concept. I have absolutely no religious beliefs."

So I'd propose that you're an irreligious agnostic.




crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:13:05 AM)

OK... quick, and silly, thought experiment...

Imagine a sealed tin (it's opaque so we cant see through it). It has jelly beans in it. And the person who writes down the exact number of jelly beans wins a car. We can't touch the jar, and it's - say 6 inches tall, and four inches round.

How many jelly beans will you guess?



StrangerThan -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:14:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Just for your information: Lack respect again and I will hide you. As simple as it is. You can consider my tone wrong. I can consider your tone wrong. But if you insult me again or degrade my writings with insults like "ridiculous", the conversation will stop there. You do not have to care about it, so don't start with that ("fuck you! why should I care?"). I am just informing you.



Ridiculous doesn't have to be an insult. It can simply be, an observation.





HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:19:33 AM)

quote:

Recheck the Oxford definition and my analysis
I have, at least 10 times, and based on the Oxford definition, your analysis is wrong. Now stop insulting my intelligence by repeating that over and over.

I lack respect for you? You don't even show me enough respect to know who I am.
quote:

so don't start with that ("fuck you! why should I care?").
That's Hanners, I'm Heather! I'm a different person, different account, different font, different everything but bed and lovers.

I will quote you from my earlier reply, which you basically ignored:
quote:

I'll show you some respect you when you start showing some respect to me and stop preaching to me. I tend to disregard people when they do that. If I don't "understand" your point, it is NOT because I don't have the slightest intention of understanding, its because either you haven't explained your point adequately or it is incorrect.
And on that point, you can hide me because until you show me a modicum of the respect you demand of me, I really have nothing further to say to you.



crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:19:40 AM)

Aww... c'mon! Humour me!



crazyml -> RE: Court Rules: Atheism is a Religion (10/12/2011 4:21:48 AM)

Heather can I send you a quick cmail - it's re the silly thought experiment.



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