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The Obama administration argues the Constitution does not permit states to deter illegal immigration, saying an issue with foreign policy implications is the exclusive mandate of the federal government.

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proof please

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RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.

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I'll take the PRO.
1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.

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2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

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3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

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Wanna try the CON?
If you do, please answer the Supposedly "unfortunate" truth as you phrased it: "probably here illegally".

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ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Then just check everyone.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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The Obama administration argues the Constitution does not permit states to deter illegal immigration, saying an issue with foreign policy implications is the exclusive mandate of the federal government.

That would seem to be it in a nutshell but I am curious about Section 12, which was allowed to stand. It is one thing if someone is arrested for another crime and is discovered to be an illegal alien... but what exactly constitutes reasonable suspicion? The United States is one of the most (if not the most) multi-ethnic societies on the planet so just physical appearance (i.e. skin color) or language or accent, etc, does no good. Maybe they think illegal aliens sneak around at night looking all shifty-eyed. The unfortunate truth is that some people think that if you are not an English speaking white person then you probably are an illegal alien (or should be).

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Then just check everyone.

That's the simple, non-profiling move. This same debate came around during Arizona's attempt, with the detractors basically saying, do nothing. That's what you're basically saying, do nothing because you can't do anything.

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So here's the deal, if the people in the state support the measure, then expire all state licenses and id cards within the next 3 years, reissue new ones packed with an rfid chip that contains number sequence generated by a trap door algorithm that's only coded once the person possessing it has supplied verifiable proof of citizenship.

A simple reader on the patrol car will tell them quickly whether or not the card is real or faked. Institute language that says you're not required to carry either, but if not, may be subject to verification.

Simple.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Then just check everyone.

In a Constitutional Republic, "Freedom" and "Liberty" are the 'default options'...

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.

Bullshit! Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Many people grow up speaking two languages: English and the language of their ancestors. I have many friends and acquaintances who are born citizens (sometimes three or four generations) and speak two languages including Spanish, Gaelic, German, Italian, Arabic, Hebrew and even Igbo and Latvian.

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2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

So? That doesn't mean they are required to speak only English (although I don't doubt that there are some who would prefer that).

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3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Again... so? Just because someone is speaking a language other than English, it is not evidence in and of itself that they are not an American citizen.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Presuming everyone is guilty of committing a crime is no way to run a free society. I am not saying do nothing. I am all in favor of seriously tightining border security. As a soverign nation I believe we have the right to stop people at the border and give them a look over before we let them in (we have enough domestically produced assholes, we don't need to import any) but that is not the same thing as treating someone with suspicion simply because of their looks or their language.

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Secondly, while I am not one of those people who think that all police are pigs who abuse their authority, some none-the-less are. We do not need to be giving the police that much power over our lives. If a cop wants to know more about me he better have a damn good reason and he better not violate my rights in the process.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.

Resolved? What, are you a one man legislature?

Most people know this is how formal debates start.

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I'll take the PRO.
1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.

Bullshit! Pure, unadulterated bullshit. Many people grow up speaking two languages: English and the language of their ancestors. I have many friends and acquaintances who are born citizens (sometimes three or four generations) and speak two languages including Spanish, Gaelic, German, Italian, Arabic, Hebrew and even Igbo and Latvian.

Thanks for proving my point. Such a person as you describe ("speaking two languages") cannot also be described as "does not speak English" unless you posit that, although born in the USA he grows up speaking, say, Gaelic and Hebrew, but not English. And that position is ludicrous even for you.

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2. Naturalized citizens are legally required to learn it as a precondition to citizenship.

So? That doesn't mean they are required to speak only English (although I don't doubt that there are some who would prefer that).

It means they cannot be included in the group "does not speak English", which is one of the two criteria of the group we are discussing.

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3. Not only are there clearly far more illegal than legal aliens in the USA, many of the long-term leagl aliens speak English before their arrival, as a precondition to success in such legal endeavors as going to college here....

Again... so? Just because someone is speaking a language other than English, it is not evidence in and of itself that they are not an American citizen.

No, but it certainly is more support for the resolution starting this little debate.

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Wanna try the CON?
If you do, please answer the Supposedly "unfortunate" truth as you phrased it: "probably here illegally".

The unfortunate truth I was refering to was not that there are illegal aliens here in the United States but that there are people who are so insular and bigoted that if they hear someone speaking another language, particularly if they are not white, then they leap to the conclusion that they are an illegal allien. As I have successfully demonstrated, no such inference can be sustained.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

RESOLVED: that an adult in the USA who does not speak English probably is here illegally.

1. Natural born citizens grow up speaking English.

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You failed in your own explanation there. Truckinslave said NOTHING about being bi or multi lingual. You admit yourself, they are speaking English.

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Again, where are you reading that it was said "only?"

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But it may be "reasonable suspicion" to ask them about their immigration status.

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Do you have the concept that what you say above is worse than the idea of "profiling?" With profiling, everyone who is speaking a foreign language is subjected to providing documentation they are here legally. That could be proof of citizenship, green card or visa.

Your way, someone is determining they are an asshole? If you are going to try to argue a point, at least try to have a legitimate argument for your point.

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Good reason? He thinks you are an asshole, that's enough legal reason, and with your definition above, he gets to make that determination.

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This already happens and can and does result in deportation. What would be changing?

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Thanks for proving my point. Such a person as you describe ("speaking two languages") cannot also be described as "does not speak English" unless you posit that, although born in the USA he grows up speaking, say, Gaelic and Hebrew, but not English. And that position is ludicrous even for you.

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It means they cannot be included in the group "does not speak English", which is one of the two criteria of the group we are discussing.

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No, but it certainly is more support for the resolution starting this little debate.

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Not at all. It is perfectly clear that most people who are in America and cannot speak English are here illegally. Not all; just a majority.

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A cop has every right to ask you for identification now. As for the costs, absolutely you should bear them if you're in a state that passes such laws and the majority supports them.

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There is no assumption of guilt. What there is an assumption of is, if you're going to use the roadway, going to conduct business, going to get a job.... all those things already require identification. It's a simple matter of coalescing it in a single place where it can be easily verified.

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Some police do abuse their authority. I'd rather we deal with them than simply adopt a do-nothing attitude.

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This problem can be fixed. And the problem isn't just that we have illegals here doing work. It is that they have to live in fear the entire time. The system as is, is not sustainable.