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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 2:18:07 PM   
Sanity


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Again, the point is that your "tar" will flow easily, despite your prior insistence that it wont

You seem to be ignorant to the science and the processes, and to be trying to pin your own ignorance on me

And the "dig" dig wasnt about a literal "dig". Dig?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Quote "Dig the new pipeline that Hill's 'tar' will flow thru with ease"Unquote

Unless your control of the English language is slipping badly, that sentence says the 'tar' will flow thru the pipeline. It will not unless it is at least partially refined on site first.
It should be edited though as you don't DIG pipelines. You construct them and then sometimes bury them.





< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/16/2011 2:36:57 PM >


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 3:35:46 PM   
jlf1961


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Sanity

First, if you dared READ the references I gave, you would KNOW that the current estimate of 42 years INCLUDES THE OIL SANDS IN CANADA.  It is also a more up to date figure than what I quoted by the BP reference.   SO THAT SHOULD SATISFY YOU ABOUT CURRENT SUPPLIES AT CURRENT PRODUCTION AND USAGE.

The tables I referenced makes it clear that is the supply for current usage, and does not figure into the growing use of petroleum by emerging economies.

quote:

The crude bitumen contained in the Canadian oil sands is described by Canadian authorities as "petroleum that exists in the semi-solid or solid phase in natural deposits.
Bitumen is a thick, sticky form of crude oil, so heavy and viscous (thick) that it will not flow unless heated or diluted with lighter hydrocarbons. At room temperature, it is much like cold molasses".


Please read the part I put in bold, since you did not read it before or you would not argue about the simple fact that the tar sand deposits are like cold molasses and needs to be SEMI REFINED in the field, which adds to the production costs, and again it is more expensive to refine to the final state, and finally, IT IS NOT TRUE OIL.

It is the basis for synthetic fuel production.  Thus it is MORE expensive, MORE polluting, and only added two years to the current known reserves.

Also, estimated possible reserves, such as off shore, oil shale, and other tar sand deposits around the world do not add that much to the estimated time before we run out.

Face facts, oil is a FINITE resource.  Car companies seem to have gotten the clue, since many of them are producing hybrid or totally electric cars.

The Germans perfected a hydrogen peroxide burning engine in WW2 for use in Uboats,  Google Walter submarine turbine.  More research has been done with using alcohol as a fuel, which by the way is a renewable carbine neutral fuel source.  Carbon neutral means that the CO2 absorbed by the plant during photosynthesis is released back into the atmosphere and will be removed by plants, it is not ADDING to the CO2 level like burning oil.

With what Perry is proposing, the money going into those research programs would be cut, dramatically.

Of course, there is the fact that he really doesn't care about the pollution if he wants to dismantle the EPA, so the environment will suffer.

But then Republicans could care less about the environment.


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 4:33:41 PM   
Sanity


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That would be like saying that many leftists dont care that higher energy costs are causing poor people to go hungry and to do without many of lifes necessities...

Except that there is some truth to the latter

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

But then Republicans could care less about the environment.


< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/16/2011 4:34:01 PM >


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 5:17:31 PM   
Masta808


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Again, you are full of shit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Thats either ignorance or a blatant lie, as Canadas shale oil reserves are staggering.

Too bad the Obama administration is dragging its feet on the proposed pipelinethat could lower our gasoline prices and help our economy take off again

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

What the republicans like Sanity seem to ignore is the fact that at projected usage that known oil reserves will run out in about 40 years. 






Uh, that number is from BP.  Try again Sanity.  Denial is not a river in Egypt.




Wow you really are adding to the discourse. Care to add some substance? Just follow Jon Kyl and Herman Cain's example. They have dont have the facts to back up their statements but that hasnt stopped them. Why should it stop you. Its the conservatives way.

If that fails take Ted Steven's route and say something that its completely ridiculous so people no longer are focused on the argument., like the "the internet is a series of tubes". In this case, "God will make us more oil"

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 6:19:54 PM   
jlf1961


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Anytime a Republican says that the liberals are against cheap energy should look in the mirror. 

Republican congressmen and women always come out against any bill that would provide more funding into alternative energy production. 

The more renewable sources of energy we develop, the cheaper it gets.  The cost per unit of energy produced is similar to the cost for new coal and natural gas installations for wind power for example.

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 10/16/2011 6:20:28 PM >


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 6:34:19 PM   
slvemike4u


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Like talking to a stone...ain't it ?

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 7:38:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Again, the point is that your "tar" will flow easily, despite your prior insistence that it wont

You seem to be ignorant to the science and the processes, and to be trying to pin your own ignorance on me

And the "dig" dig wasnt about a literal "dig". Dig?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Quote "Dig the new pipeline that Hill's 'tar' will flow thru with ease"Unquote

Unless your control of the English language is slipping badly, that sentence says the 'tar' will flow thru the pipeline. It will not unless it is at least partially refined on site first.
It should be edited though as you don't DIG pipelines. You construct them and then sometimes bury them.





My point is that bitumen doesnt flow thru a pipeline without extensive on site processing. That is from YOUR links that YOU posted. Go back and read them.

Are you THAT fucking stupid? What is your background in chemistry? I made a living as a geochemist/chrystallographer/materials scientist from 88-96. What is your background?

OOPS, I forgot, you listen to Rush. That's all the education and experiance anyone needs to know everything about everything.

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 7:45:52 PM   
Sanity


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Again... point out where I wrote that it wouldnt be refined

That it will be refined isnt even germane, how did you pass any Chemistry classes when you obviously flunked Reading Comprehension 101 and Introduction to Logic



< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/16/2011 7:46:28 PM >


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 7:48:38 PM   
Sanity


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Theyll change their minds when gas hits five bucks a gallon again, and a tank of heating oil costs as much as a used car

quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

they want to send this pipeline through Nebraska. we don't want it here. 


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 7:55:03 PM   
Hillwilliam


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You said "Tar will flow easily" I have said "only with onsite processing "

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt bitumen 101 Asphalt is geologically a synonym for bitumen. A quote "Naturally occurring asphalt is sometimes specified by the term "crude Bitumen"; its viscosity is similar to that of cold molasses.[2][3]"

You can't pump that thru a pipeline because the pressures involved will blow the pipeline out.

Note the pictures. It is a STICKY ROCKLIKE substance. How are you going to pump that thru a pipeline?

I didn't flunk reading comprehension. You flunked writing. Write what you mean to write and quit moving the goalposts and changing your mind about what you wrote

By the way, I earlier asked you a direct question and you must have missed it. On topic. Do you approive of Perry killing research into alternative energy?

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 7:55:53 PM   
jlf1961


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Sanity and others like him think that OIL is the answer to the energy problems.  They yell about the Canadian Tar Sands being vast, or they will point to the Bakken Formation in the Dakotas and Montana and say that we can be free of overseas oil dependence.

Then when someone points out that the supply in ALL known oil fields, INCLUDING fields that were considered, until recently, as not economically feasible, they go into instant denial and start saying that the information is scare tactics.

The problem is that the figure of 42 years is the most OPTIMISTIC outlook.  There are a few scientists say that we have already hit the peak oil.


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 8:33:24 PM   
Sanity


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jlf wrote

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Yup, oil sands are the answer.  It costs more to recover, refine AND the refining process has far more pollution than normal oil refining.  In other words, it is going to RAISE the cost of gasoline and diesel at the pump.


To which I responded affirmitively,  "Dig the new pipeline that hills "tar" will flow through with ease"

There was no need to repeat what jlf wrote, I assumed everyone reading it was intelligent enough to acknowledge that fact had been acknowledged. My only argument with jlfs point was that it was already feasible to refine it and send it through the pipeline.

I had referred to the reserves as tar sands previously in the thread besides, so try to get a grip. Only you would need a chemistry degree to understand that these reserves have to be refined...



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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 8:45:17 PM   
Sanity


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Dont pretend that you speak for me. Oil is AN answer, it has to be if we are to provide ourselves with the energy that we need.

Look at food inflation presently, though I know you and yours arent intellectually honest enough to acknowledge current food inflation which is in large part directly proportional to recent dramatic energy inflation

In other words feed the hungry now, and chant "all hail Al Gore" and attend to your peak oil cult later.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Sanity and others like him think that OIL is the answer to the energy problems.  They yell about the Canadian Tar Sands being vast, or they will point to the Bakken Formation in the Dakotas and Montana and say that we can be free of overseas oil dependence.

Then when someone points out that the supply in ALL known oil fields, INCLUDING fields that were considered, until recently, as not economically feasible, they go into instant denial and start saying that the information is scare tactics.

The problem is that the figure of 42 years is the most OPTIMISTIC outlook.  There are a few scientists say that we have already hit the peak oil.



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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 8:46:24 PM   
tj444


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Nothing personal but... if the US doesn't want Canada's oil, China does..

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 8:51:26 PM   
Sanity


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Someones going to use it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Nothing personal but... if the US doesn't want Canada's oil, China does..


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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 9:01:14 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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Bitumin is basically "protocoal" or "precoal".

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/16/2011 10:13:16 PM   
jlf1961


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You have not said anything about the fact that Perry would dismantle the EPA, hence the statement that republicans could care less about the environment, cut funding into alternative fuels and power generation research, and doing nothing to LESSEN the dependence on oil.

To address your point, oil is AN answer.

Oil is a TEMPORARY answer, in other words, it is going to run out.  You would have us forgo research into making alternatives cheaper until it is gone.

Hiding under the covers and making claims that we have more than enough oil to last is absurd.  We don't.  Oil is running out, and we need to find alternatives now before it is gone. 

Demand for oil is on the rise.  Domestic demand for oil in the US is on the rise.  And it is going to run out.

A few things that that government research money is funding right now.

There is synthetic fuel production, using a couple of different methods, the Germans used it in WW2 to supplement oil production.

One of the most promising is getting oil from biomass, in fact one of the best plants that has been used to make biodiesel is cannabis.  It has been experimented with in limited college labs.  It is a refined mixture of the oil from the seeds and ethanol.  Growing Hemp is illegal in the US, even though the most promising member of the family is Industrial Hemp, which contains less than 1 percent psychoactive chemicals in its flowers, and some of its cousins, which contain up to 22 percent.   http://biodiesel.engr.uconn.edu/research.html

I have heard Conservatives argue that making biofuel is taking grain out of the food supply, hemp grows in soils that would normally not be cultivated in normal farming.  Thus growing the hemp would not directly impact food production.

I am not saying that bio and synthetic fuels would or could replace oil, but given the government support, it could take some of the pressure and cut the current dependency.

Then there is, nuclear electricity production.  Yes it has its drawbacks, and yes the resultant waste needs to be dealt with, but until someone makes a break through in fusion research, we are going to have to seriously consider the current technology.

A dew points on the automotive side of the equation.

While Hybrid or electric cars seem to be a ultra liberal rallying cry, the truth is that right now, an all electric Nissan Leaf has the Longest range at 100 miles city driving for a family style four door, and the Tesla roadster has a 245 mile range at highway speeds.  But there are some catches to an electric vehicle.  Not the least of which is that some cars would require electrical work done on your home to charge one.

The tesla uses a custom microprocessor-controlled lithium-ion battery with 6,831 individual cells. 3.5 hour charge time from empty to full using the Tesla High Power Wall Connector at 240 Volts and 70 Amps.

The Nissan leaf also recommends a 240 volt charging station in the home.

A few cars can be charged on 110 volt household current, but take up to 24 hours to charge.

IN other words, while electric cars are available, more research into the batteries for these cars needs to be done.  So much for the ultra liberal dream of electric cars.

Hybrid vehicles have some promise, but they only use total electric drive for up to 25 miles, then switch to gas, which runs the car and charges the battery.  In the long run, not as green as some people claim.



The most practical alternative to gasoline, at this time, is hydrogen.

The hydrogen fuel cell  , which generates electricity through a reaction with oxygen, shows promise.  The problem is that hydrogen fuel cells are expensive, prohibitively expensive at current technology, about $5,500/kW, . 

A hydrogen burning engine actually is 8% more efficient than a gasoline powered engine.  The simple fact is that an internal combustion engine is not very efficient, of course it is more efficient than an external combustion engine, such as steam power.

All those areas of research are being funded partially by the government.  Would you support cutting funding to those programs as Perry has said he would do?



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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/17/2011 9:30:50 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Thats either ignorance or a blatant lie, as Canadas shale oil reserves are staggering.


Then we better start building payments to Canada into our budgets, eh?

Cuz we will end up owing them a staggering amount, us without oil otherwise.

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/17/2011 10:22:43 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
So much for the ultra liberal dream of electric cars.

oh, i dunno.. some people are doing it..
I have read about some good conversions and they can go 60 m/hr, they have a solar thingie on the roof and batteries in the back... Its something i have thought about for a few years but i am not a mechanic and would have to buy one already coverted or find a mechanic that could.. Some people just hate paying money for gas.. lol
But even if you dont want to go electric, there are inexpensive vehicles like the yaris that will go 40 or 50 m/gal (according to users), no need to spend big bucks on one of the hybrids (I think they are a rip off anyway).
http://cbelectriccar.com/blog/electric-truck/electric-truck-conversion-kits/

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RE: Perry Promises Increased Drilling and Decreased Reg... - 10/17/2011 10:36:04 AM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Nothing personal but... if the US doesn't want Canada's oil, China does..


Sinopec (China) already owns much of it. But until "closer' and more easily refinable  oil gets way pricier, China makes more money selling it to the roundeyes, then they would if they did ship it to China. Even the tar sands and shale in the US are still to costly to mine and process, considering all the labor and regulatory costs.

Those tar sands would be sitting untouched if Canada could not sell the petroleum from them to the US. It isn't even economical most the time to ship the oil; to Eastern Canada, yet.

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