accepting of hard limits?? (Full Version)

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wouldlike2 -> accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 5:54:16 AM)

hello to A/all,

i do assume most of U/us do have hard limits.. some of them people can understand very easily .. some of them the reason just know by the person has this hard limit.
however - i would like to know. if You play with a play - partner and You got the information about a hard limit. a limit is set by mental, emotional, psychological reasons...
while playing someone try to push this limit, at least do not respect it - cause some limits(for myself) are mental/ psychological and He taks advantage of a pure physical state You are in ( like horniness, lust) and go over that limit.
how You would define this?

thanks a lot for Y/your answers






BBBTBW -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 6:14:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wouldlike2

while playing someone try to push this limit, at least do not respect it - cause some limits(for myself) are mental/ psychological and He taks advantage of a pure physical state You are in ( like horniness, lust) and go over that limit.
how You would define this?

thanks a lot for Y/your answers



I would still call it a hard limit.  However, you need to re-examine the limit and see if it is as taboo as you had originally thought.  Sometimes we set limits based upon pre-conceived ideals and once we have an experience that goes past the limit it seems not the monumental thing it once was.   If you still consider it a hard limit after you examine it, speak with your DOMINANT about it.  Tell him that although you went past it in the throws of passion, you felt very uncomfortable with yourself and him afterward and you would like him to respect that limit.  If he says no or won't discuss it, you should seriously think about exiting that relationship.  Pushing limits is part of a DOMINANTS choice as long as she/he doesn't damage the slave in the process. 

Case in point:  I once had a submissive that had an anal phobia.  He had no idea how a gentle massage on the prostate could enhance his orgasm until I pushed past his limit.  I did tell him ahead of time that at some point in time I was going to do it, but he didn't know when.  When I finally did it and we talked about it afterward, he had tears in his eyes because I had broadened his horizons in a way that he didn't know could happen.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 6:16:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wouldlike2
while playing someone try to push this limit, at least do not respect it - cause some limits(for myself) are mental/ psychological and He taks advantage of a pure physical state You are in ( like horniness, lust) and go over that limit.
how You would define this?

thanks a lot for Y/your answers

Hmmmm I'd consider it completely inappropriate for someone to attempt to enter into territory of a hard limit, especially once clear consent has been given based on the understanding that they will NOT attempt to enter into that territory.

That being said, we are adults here and I think using the excuse of "I got too horny to say no" doesn't hold water- you have responsibility here.  Yes it was wrong for "him" to attempt to go into hard limit land- but unless we're talking actual force here, it is up to you to stop it.

Accept that you were wrong in letting it go farther than it should have, accept that "he" isn't someone you want to play with anymore due to inability to hold to commitments and move on, hopefully more responsible next time.

Of course, there's countless cases of women who find that they really LIKED the being pushed and the pushiness of the other partner and keep being with them, only to find out that (surprise) he doesn't really care for the REALLY important limits and boundaries either.



merrymasochist -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 6:48:53 AM)

I would define it as a serious and deliberate breach of trust and would not work with that person again. Hard limits are hard limits and should be respected as such whether a person is a top or bottom, dominant or submissive. Using the physical and mental state of mind as a means to push someone over a hard limit without first discussing and agreeing to it beforehand is highly underhanded, disrespectful and can be downright dangerous.

I've had this happen to me. His response was that I lived through it and even liked parts of it so what was the fuss about? My reply to him was that it didn't matter that I had lived through it and liked parts of it, it was a hard limit of mine that he knew about and had agreed to before we played together. By his using my physical and mental state to break that hard limit he broke all trust between us. If he couldn't honor our pre-set agreements what else would he push and break? I've not worked with him since despite his repeated calls. Harsh? Mayhaps, but it was by his own choice when he decided to use my subspace against me to break my trust in him.

Just my thoughts. I wish you peace.

Sincerely,
merry



wouldlike2 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 7:19:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: merrymasochist

Mayhaps, but it was by his own choice when he decided to use my subspace against me to break my trust in him.


Sincerely,
merry


thats exactly the point i am talking of. it was my first time playing with him... and no - even he is not Dom to me, Master or whatever... like told before play-partner.
i did informed Him that i have a hard limit and that i do not wanna go over that with Him. cause this hard limit do exist for Him as a play-partner.
and yes He used the moment of subspace then to make his own way cause for Him it was a must....
myself i felt very uncomfortable after... and especially when i negotiate before and trust that this person will not touch this point of myself then....
its just an iiiiiiiihhhhhhh - feeling -

thanks a lot for the response

pet



Wolf1020 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 7:28:33 AM)


Hard limits are there for a reason, areas NOT to go.  Sometimes going to the edge of those limits are one thing, but flat out breaking them is a big no no.  If anything when the dominant thinks your limit is just based on pre-conceived notions and not really knowing because you have never done it then exploring it should be discussed.  And after that done only if the submissive agrees to explore it, limits change and there is no harm is trying to work with a sub to expand her limits, there is/can be harm just outright breaking them however.  Anal is one limit I see with several people who have never done it.  Most because it is taboo and can't see it being a good thing.  But then you have some who simply can't do it for whatever reason and could be injured.  Just breaking that limit in such a case could lead to injury, which is why a responsible dominant doesn't simply break limits without first talking it over with the submissive to explore the limit and see if it can be made enjoyable and removed.

He used your mental state against you when you were in a position where you couldn't have said no.  Just because you didn't have him stop doesn't matter, I've known submissives who were seriously injured and one who nearly bleed to death who were so far into sub-space they begged their dominant to keep going until they snapped out of it enough to realize something was wrong.  It is up to the dominant to keep control in such cases for the well being of the submissive and to keep her limits in mind because deep into a scene many simply can't say no any longer.  I'd recommend not playing with him again and if you do not for a very long time for him to wise up.



CreativeDominant -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 7:30:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wouldlike2

quote:

ORIGINAL: merrymasochist

Mayhaps, but it was by his own choice when he decided to use my subspace against me to break my trust in him.


Sincerely,
merry


thats exactly the point i am talking of. it was my first time playing with him... and no - even he is not Dom to me, Master or whatever... like told before play-partner.
i did informed Him that i have a hard limit and that i do not wanna go over that with Him. cause this hard limit do exist for Him as a play-partner.
and yes He used the moment of subspace then to make his own way cause for Him it was a must....
myself i felt very uncomfortable after... and especially when i negotiate before and trust that this person will not touch this point of myself then....
its just an iiiiiiiihhhhhhh - feeling -


If you've read any of my posts on related threads, you know I am a big believer in 'climbing the steps'.  People do not enter full-blown D/s relationships from the get-go, they take them one step at a time.  Now, if a dominant should...and I believe they should...still respect hard limits once you become his full submissive (push them, sure, but respect them), then why the hell should a dominant that you are playing with for the first time not do his best to respect them even more?

It is my opinion that he took advantage.  That makes him dishonorable as a man and as a dominant. MOO, YMMV.






Jane2376 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 7:46:12 AM)

It seems to me that this dominant was in this purely for himself, or at least was not considering you as he should.  I often run across dominants that forget this is a two way street, as it is a subs job to make a dom happy, so it is a doms job to make a sub happy.  Sometimes in relationships where a dom and sub have been together a long time and the dom knows the sub almost better than they know themselves, it may be appropriate to lightly push the boundries in a controlled way at an appropriate time.  But your situation clearly was not that.  I started out with the longest list of limits that I've ever seen, I didn't want to do anything lol.  After a while with my dom he told me that he wanted to start working on them with me, he thought it would make ME happier.  Now a long time later, I say that I have no limits personally, they are all securely in his hands, I trust them there and know that he won't push me beyond what I want or need.  As a submissive I'm happier than ever.  Point being that I can't say emphatically it's okay to never push limits, but without consent and taking advantage of someone, that's not right in my book.  Letting someone take advantage of you is a slippery slope, and as a sub you are in a vulnerable position, where will it stop?  Just food for thought.

Jane



SrDarkLord1 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 8:15:19 AM)

I have to agree with all of you....I make sure that the one I am with,understands fully what is going to be done,and what the safe words or signals are proir to even meeting...Then have her sign a play contract to ensure she knows those things....going over with her the "safe words and siganls" again.

I make sure I can always see her eyes....For that shows me most of the time what is going on with her and how far into play she is...



amayos -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 9:46:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wouldlike2
...Because some limits (for myself) are mental / psychological and He takes advantage of a pure physical state I am in ( like horniness, lust) and goes over that limit.


[Fixed grammar above]

The conquest of a "limit" is to be a thinking, feeling process, involving close communication and trust (and so on and so forth). One could think of it as climbing a mountain together, I suppose. That your Master/top/dominant is attempting to bypass this limit by "slipping it under the radar" speaks somewhat ill of his persuasion skills.

Having said that, it's important to understand who and what you both are to each other, and that you are both on the same "page", so to speak. Negotion-based dominance and submission or Master and slave? While communication is still vital in both forms of relation, there is a yawning ravine of difference between the two.



Proprietrix -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 9:53:09 AM)


Hmm…. You know, as a Dominant, I really just don’t have any urge to push limits. I kinda of think "Wtf is the point?" Name me any reason to push a limit, and I will rebut it with a comment about adulthood and maturity of two people engaging in consensual acts.

I might be highly curious about the reason why the limit is there, and ask about it. I might even relate it to other types of play to not engage in. (i.e. if a sub has a limit against face-slapping because Dad hit him in the face, I’m probably also going to avoid any other type of impact play near the face.)

People often see the words "limits are there for a reason", but dismiss the statement as kind of cliché. They really are though. Most subs don’t randomly go down a checklist and mark every 16th entry as a hard limit. They choose certain activities that trigger a certain response in them. It’s not my place as another human being to undermine a submissive’s reasoning based on their own emotions. I wouldn’t do it to my child. I wouldn’t do it to my family or friends. Why would I do it to my subs?

Going back to…. wtf is the point? I just can’t think of any good logical reason to push limits. None.



wouldlike2 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 10:11:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos



Having said that, it's important to understand who and what you both are to each other, and that you are both on the same "page", so to speak. Negotion-based dominance and submission or Master and slave? While communication is still vital in both forms of relation, there is a yawning ravine of difference between the two.


just to make it clear: there was a negotiation before getting into play with each other.
and he is neither a Dom or Master to me - just would say a buddy to play with. however... some things i will not do with buddies/ play- partners based on my emotional, mental lack of a special connection/bond i do have opposite to a Dom i am involved in.
so - definitly i do have some hard limits with "play buddies" i do not have with a Dom i have a bond with.
this was very clearly stated from myself before getting in the scene.
even when playing - there is a bottom of trust. at least i trust this person that agreements were done before in a state i am clear with my mind and know the consequences to me and my innerself - that this negotiation will be held by.
i will not play again with Him....



genvieve -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 11:59:40 AM)

i think that the dangerous thing with pushing limits is the forum through which it is used.  It is my belief, however that if no prior negotiation of "i'm ready to push my hard limits, Sir/Ma'am"...then using the play realm (while a submissive/slave is virtually incapable of saying no) is without a doubt, hands down, case closed abusive.



Wolf1020 -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 12:05:44 PM)

it doesn't matter if he is "your" dom or just a play partner.

He was a dominant in a session and you were the submissive in that session.

He knew your hard limits and broke them while you weren't in a position to stop him, plain simple end of story your full time dom or your romp buddy broke them and abused the situation.  This is not someone you want to continue to play with if you have any concern at all for yourself or your well being, both mental and physical.



ADomDoc -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/25/2006 2:08:33 PM)

I don't bother with a sub who has drastically different limits or play interests from my own.

When getting to know a sub or slave, I ask about:

Hard (objective) Limits ... which I see as (for now) the maximum extent play can go for that person.

Interests & Experience ... which is the baseline and sort of a minimum level of play that is expected from the Dom.  It also sets a starting place that must be achieved before venturing beyond.

Fantasies ... which is more of the direction a good scene will travel if the Dom is trying to please the sub at all.

Soft (subjective) Limits ... determine an area of acceptable incremental exploration IF the sub is in the right mood & has been brought up to subspace.

Fears & phobias ... which are a dangerous direction or borderline for the sub ... if approached directly (on purpose or by accident), play in this area can ruin the scene for the sub.  IF approached tangentially and carefully, a sub will surprisingly find that fears add spice to play.  Beginning Doms shouldn't even consider this ... it can blow up in your face if you haven't been tutored in this line of play.

No sub is absolutely happy with his/her limits.  In my experience, all of my subs like my pushing their limits. Their accomplishment is in pushing back the fear & the subsequent pride in succeeding at it. This works only if they are with a Dom/me that is trusted AND if it can be done safely.  That is NOT to say that the Dom/me should automatically plan to take the sub/slave off into the Dom/me's area of preference if it's a hard limit for the sub.  

On a related vein: subs who use safe words always do so in anticipation of a scene reaching their limits AND before their limits have actually been met. Ergo, all subs stop their scenes early and are always subsequently disappointed.  YMMV.  I think safewords are a reasonable contrivance in a new relationship ... but they are only as good as the word of the Dom/me that has you tied up.

Just my 2cents worth.

ADomDoc
SanAntonio




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/26/2006 5:37:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADomDoc
No sub is absolutely happy with his/her limits. 

Uhhh wrong.  I'm quite happy with the limits I've got in my life.  And I know lots of subs and slaves who are happy with their relationship and the limits they have within them.

Although I will say a common trend among us is that we don't distinguish "soft" limits from "hard" limits and we tend to be very inclusive in terms of financial matters, biological family matters and other LIFE/non-bdsm specific issues with these sorts of discussions.

I've got limits, I'm quite confident and comfortable with them, and they are NOT to be pushed.

Everything else is open for discussion and exploration should the desire/opportunity ever arise.



piscess -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/26/2006 5:41:05 AM)

I call it inappropriate and him someone I would not play with again.
 
Hard limits are there for a reason and to take advantage of someone when in a state she cannot resist..totally inappropriate!!
 
piscess



spectreandnectre -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/26/2006 5:51:46 AM)

As far as limits go before i got involved i set that list hard and soft alike and a few unsures.  But i know that over the years my limits have changed, who knows why, but i think they change for many reasons.
 
i believe that a Dominant may try to push some of those softer limits.  As far as hard limits i think they do change over time and some of those hard limits become soft limits and some stay right where they were.
 
But any Dominant who is going to force a limit is not thinking on your best interests especially if its early on in the relationship.  Perhaps over time a Dominant could have learned a psychological reason why a hard limit is hard and may try to work on the psychological aspect of it to possibly push those limits but a Dominant will always be kind about that not forcing it to a point of harm.  No real Dominant wants to hurt the one they care about.
 
But only my opinion



LL1aintbehavin -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/26/2006 6:33:01 AM)

if limits are ignored then why have them in the first place??  if every top that plays with a bottom just says yes during negotiations then once the bottom is securely tied they do as they wish then there would be no point.
hard limits should always be respected, and soft limits.  when in a D/s relationship, or when discussed in detail soft limits can be pushed, or if the sub wishes to push hard limits it can be done.  i don't believe either should be pushed by just a play partner, they have not earned the right.
i would have nothing to do with anyone that violated the trust given to them when i was in a vulnerable position.  its good you say that you have no intention of playing with him again.
it worries me that he so easily violates the limits when only in a casual play situation.
aintbehavin



marieToo -> RE: accepting of hard limits?? (5/26/2006 6:39:38 AM)

Wouldlike2:  Might I ask how it was that you were unable to communicate to him during the scene that you did not approve of where he was going with it?  Were you gagged??



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