RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland

RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (Full Version)

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DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:08:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If you are a vet, Darque, I'll invite you to refresh yourself on the First Amendment to something you once took an oath to defend. I'm well aware of the amendments. But some of what these people are doing is crossing the line. quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic If it turns to violence, then they aren't assembling peaceably anymore, are they? And when that happens in a group that size, you have a riot situation. The police are attempting to prevent that because if they don't, they will catch hell for that as well. As usual, the cops are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:11:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Yes... and why are they being told to disperse? We covered this -- to prevent possible riots and protect the public.

Kirata -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:14:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: The vast majority of demonstrators are actually employed, and the proportion of protesters unemployed (15%) is within single digits of the national unemployment rate (9.1%). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html The paragraph leading into that quote reads... Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda. Do you think those findings are accurate too? K.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:18:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda. Interesting. So it appears the cops are right to disperse them, since 31% believe in using violence. Sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

TreasureKY -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Yes... and why are they being told to disperse? We covered this -- to prevent possible riots and protect the public. Look... First of all, be aware that I'm a veteran and a conservative business owner. Even I'm becoming alarmed at the actions being taken against the demonstrators. The First Amendment provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Assuming that these assemblies will lead to riots and endanger public safety appears to be an exercise in justifying the abridgement of those rights. I may not agree with what these protesters want (whatever that is), but by God... I believe in their right to peacefully assemble and demonstrate.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:29:29 PM)
quote: So it appears the cops are right to disperse them So you are advocating abrogating their Constitutional rights on the off chance that the protesters might respond to the violence of the police with violence of their own? Let me remind you of the words of the amendment you claim to be familiar with. quote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. As of this point they have been peaceable, the only violence employed has been on the part of the authorities. Personally I think Hanners is right, the authorities are trying their best to provoke a violent response.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Even I'm becoming alarmed at the actions being taken against the demonstrators. Well, I'm personally becoming alarmed at the protesters themselves. On the one hand claiming to protest "corporate greed" while on the other hand supporting it in droves. quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Assuming that these assemblies will lead to riots and endanger public safety appears to be an exercise in justifying the abridgement of those rights. I may not agree with what these protesters want (whatever that is), but by God... I believe in their right to peacefully assemble and demonstrate. And when it does turn to a violent riot, I assume you will hold the police blameless?

tazzygirl -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:43:56 PM)
quote: Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda. Do you think those findings are accurate too? K. Actually yes. I do believe many are willing to go to those ends.... especially the 98%.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:47:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Actually yes. I do believe many are willing to go to those ends.... especially the 98%. So you agree violence is likely, but are opposed to police doing what they can to minimize the possibility? Interesting.

TreasureKY -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:52:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Even I'm becoming alarmed at the actions being taken against the demonstrators. Well, I'm personally becoming alarmed at the protesters themselves. On the one hand claiming to protest "corporate greed" while on the other hand supporting it in droves. Well, we obviously have differences in coping abilities. I don't find disagreeing with someone else's opinion, or even believing them to be misguided, as sufficient reason to be alarmed. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Assuming that these assemblies will lead to riots and endanger public safety appears to be an exercise in justifying the abridgement of those rights. I may not agree with what these protesters want (whatever that is), but by God... I believe in their right to peacefully assemble and demonstrate. And when it does turn to a violent riot, I assume you will hold the police blameless? Yes.

TreasureKY -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/25/2011 11:54:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Interesting. So it appears the cops are right to disperse them, since 31% believe in using violence. Sounds like a ticking time bomb to me. Tell me, please... would you fight for your own constitutional rights?

HannahLynn -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:04:13 AM)
quote: And when it does turn to a violent riot, I assume you will hold the police blameless? no, because it has already turned fucking violent, and since it is the cops who have instigated the violence all along, i will hold them 100% completely at fault.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:04:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Well, we obviously have differences in coping abilities. I don't find disagreeing with someone else's opinion, or even believing them to be misguided, as sufficient reason to be alarmed. I think large groups of people "occupying" several major cities, with at least one third of their number admitting to belief in resorting to violence to be a problem. What you have are several riots waiting to happen.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:06:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Tell me, please... would you fight for your own constitutional rights? If I did "fight," I would not be surprised to land in jail because of it. Let's be real here. No one's constitutional rights are being denied. But the constitution is not a "do whatever you like without consequences" card. If the protests get out of hand, it's the police who will get the call to "save" the innocent people. I see nothing wrong with trying to minimize the danger levels by dispersing the crowds.

TreasureKY -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:10:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY Tell me, please... would you fight for your own constitutional rights? If I did "fight," I would not be surprised to land in jail because of it. And it doesn't sound like anyone arrested was surprised. If the protesters' goal was to bring to our attention how fragile our rights are, they are succeeding.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:13:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY If the protesters' goal was to bring to our attention how fragile our rights are, they are succeeding. Not really. The only thing they are bringing to my attention is something I was already aware of -- never doubt the stupidity of people in large groups.

EbonyWood -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:36:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Interesting. So it appears the cops are right to disperse them, since 31% believe in using violence. Sounds like a ticking time bomb to me. Not really. If you and I were to meet, there would be a much greater than 31% chance that I would slap you around and make you my bitch. Doesn't mean it will happen, or has happened yet. Until it did, no crime.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 12:47:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood Not really. If you and I were to meet, there would be a much greater than 31% chance that I would slap you around and make you my bitch. Doesn't mean it will happen, or has happened yet. Until it did, no crime. Oh how I love "internet badasses" who like to threaten people online. Feel better? Because you've not helped your side one bit. All you've done is support the need to disburse these crowds "just in case."

blacksword404 -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 1:11:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: EbonyWood Not really. If you and I were to meet, there would be a much greater than 31% chance that I would slap you around and make you my bitch. Doesn't mean it will happen, or has happened yet. Until it did, no crime. Oh how I love "internet badasses" who like to threaten people online. Feel better? Because you've not helped your side one bit. All you've done is support the need to disburse these crowds "just in case." "Just in case" ends with people in camps or worse. We have seen that before. Not a path we want to head down. Native Americans, Japanese, jews. Take your pick.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 1:22:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blacksword404 "Just in case" ends with people in camps or worse. We have seen that before. Not a path we want to head down. Native Americans, Japanese, jews. Take your pick. Not quite. Dispersing crowds is a world away from the examples you mention. Not even in the same ballpark. I can throw out some examples too -- L.A. riots in the 90's, riots in Cinncinatti, etc. The potential for harm in a riot is far worse than the small few who get arrested for refusing lawful orders to disperse.

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