RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland

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DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:34:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig Note the operative word here, but not to worry, he wouldn't. Darque isn't the sort to do something that might involve risk, he's even afraid to date women he hasn't paid. That's right Mr. Breast-cancer-doesn't-matter-because-its-a-slit's-disease, some of us remember your previous trolling forays. Oh look, the pill-popping schitzo decides to chime in with not only a personal attack, but also with some from a thread thatsbeen dead for over a month. How cute. Did the voices in your head tell you that was a good idea or that incorrect assumptions and accusations from dead threads is somehow relevant in this one?

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:38:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife So let me me understand this. If there is a fire I should just let people die instead of warning them? Another graduate of Bill and Ted's School of Law. Were you born this stupid or did you take lessons? The fire in a theater reference is used for someone who would yell the word When there IS NO FIRE. Now, perhaps you can drop the abject retardation.

errantgeek -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:39:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror I think I'll take the word of officers sworn to uphold the law, who were actually there, before that of some random guy on the Internet who watched it all on TV. Well, of course. Cops would never create their own exigencies, fabricate evidence, or justify actions after the fact to fit the circumstances. Because they're, as an occupational group, such pillars of credibility and accountability. Especially Oakland cops. Why do we even have internal affairs divisions again, they're such wastes of time and money. quote: No they didnt. If they had, there'd be a lot of dead protesters. The cops met rocks, paint and bottles with non-lethal tear gas. It doesn't matter if they had armor or not. Assault by a mob is still assault by a mob. It begins with rocks and bottles, soon enough those bottles become molotov cocktails. Yet, ~30 hours into the whole situation not one molotov cocktail has been thrown, IED exploded or gun fired by the protesters. Not even when they were being actively tear gassed in a city with such pillars of restraint and credibility in law enforcement, absolutely no history of tension between law enforcement and civilians, or documented history of rioting. Most goddamned boring riot in history, may as well be watching snails screw for what it's worth. Because rocks, paint and water bottles are such deadly weapons, too. Riot gear won't protect against that. The cops are lucky they didn't end up with a few of their own dead, for crying out loud! The protesters are lucky they only got away with less-lethal rounds, flashbangs and a hell of a lot of CS.

Masta808 -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:39:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: errantgeek quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Snip. That's all very nice and well-written, but I can't help but notice that throughout your comments on my character was not one word said about how recalling actions actually carried out by tea party members -- not just a fringe element or a few, but a great deal if not the majority -- and explicitly endorsed by the tea party's national leaders and its candidates, all of which is extraordinarily well-documented to the point of making debate about its reality entirely moot, is somehow insulting or denigrating. Its what he does. If he cant win the debate he will attack your character. Its his typical ad hominen response. He went as far to post stuff from my blog when he was debating me. You find it here.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:40:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: errantgeek That's all very nice and well-written, but I can't help but notice that throughout your comments on my character was not one word said about how recalling actions actually carried out by tea party members -- not just a fringe element or a few, but a great deal if not the majority -- and explicitly endorsed by the tea party's national leaders and its candidates, all of which is extraordinarily well-documented to the point of making debate about its reality entirely moot, is somehow insulting or denigrating. Ok .... one more ... "If you wish to denigrate the TEA party, start a thread. If I have the time and interest, I may engage you, but it's not likely, as I've got a lot of things going on in my life over the next couple of weeks or so, and little time to waste in long, detailed explanations of life, philosophy, politics and everything." This thread isn't about the TEA parties, and I've done enough hijacking. I only got involved due to tazzy, and then Heather, who are both "long time" posters who I respect, and who know me pretty well already. shrugs Not meant as a personal affront, although I know it is, but you just don't rate much of my attention yet. Condescending? Yea, probably. I'm good at that at times, I've been told. [:)] Firm

Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:40:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Furthermore, what does "occupying wall street" have to do with a 16% unemployment rate? There was a protester in New York with a sign saying corporations should provide him with free tuition. For what? What makes these people think they are entitled to something they didn't earn? Every Crowd or Group has a few idiots wandering about them. This guy happened to be one of them. I watched the Video of him being interviewed too. If you want to make any group look bad, you simply interview the biggest idiot or wing nut from the group and post it online. (something to think about). Occupy Wall Street and the 16% unemployment rate have a lot to do with one another... along with this fucked up economy we in world wide. The Banks and Wall Streeters have done a pretty good job at fucking the economy up too! Don't tell me you missed the news about shit happening over the last few years. Yet these professional idiots all got bonuses for screwing shit up. Come on here! Wall Street alone ain't to blame.. but they are part of the problem.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:41:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So by your logic, if the police think a group might become violent they are allowed to violently break up a peacefull assembly and if the attacked civilians defend themselves that justifies the police's violence? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? The problem you see is the one you've imagined. Ordering someone to disperse (with words) is not violent. The violence is the rocks and bottles being thrown at the cops.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:45:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And it has already been pointed out to you that the majority of these protesters are employed and came out on their time off from work. It's interesting to note that I didn't see you on here complaining of the teabagger protests. But my guess is you are someone's sock puppet. Especially since you don't have an active profile. No one comes on here being so vociferous with only a couple hundred posts. You've obviously been here before and you were probably banned under your previous screen name. Assumptions can be fun, can't they? Doesn't mean they're correct. Nice try though. One of us is discussing the topic, the other is talking about the lack of a profile. Is that all you have left for your side of the argument?

errantgeek -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror The problem you see is the one you've imagined. Ordering someone to disperse (with words) is not violent. The violence is the rocks and bottles being thrown at the cops. See, the thing is according to most reports I've read, by the time objects were being thrown at the cops the crowd had already been gassed at least once. That was coupled in yesterday morning's eviction, when the police kettled, infiltrated and began to evict protesters without ample warning in pre-dawn hours. By last evening, the situation had turned into a cyclical escalation of violence. That's the problem -- at least in my opinion -- with riot control tactics applied to protests. Overwhelming police presence coupled with riot gear, kettling, and threats of violence should the crowd not immediately comply, especially when the punishment for non-compliance is shared rendering immediate compliance moot, tend to make people a little jittery, defensive, angry and more prone to violence when they otherwise would not be. Especially in situations in which said crowd/protesters have been extraordinarily peaceful and compliant to municipal wishes, and an alternate venue for dispersal is entirely possible through conflict resolution and negotiation. Kettling the occupiers with riot-geared officers, then moving in kicking down tents was the worst possible way to handle the eviction, and the most likely to incite unrest or escalate the encounter into violence. That's the point, and key to the whole proportionality discussion.

erieangel -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 9:58:13 PM)
I've done it again--started a thread at night, then went to bed. LOL So, anyway, I have a lot of replies to make about the posts: First of all, I don't need to get a job as I've got 2-one full time, one part time. And most of my free time is spent supporting my brothers and sisters at occupyerie. After being given a figurative thumbs up from both the Erie mayor and the police chief a week ago, on Monday we told we were not allowed to sleep in the park any more, nor are we allowed to feed the homeless. We were told that we can apply for permits to set up tents in 2 parks but those tents would have to be dismantled by 10 pm each night--in parks that are open 24/7? The occupy movement has nothing to do with getting something for free--unless you consider giving the chronically homeless the basic necessities of life as a hardship for yourself. A large portion of the homeless in any city are mentally ill and unable to work even if they want to. The police have no right to disperse groups of people because a crime "might" happen. If they could, they would also have been able to protect me from an abusive husband who had threatened me, but they couldn't, they had to wait until he beat me again before they could anything. OWS is not a liberal movement. There are many liberals, socialists and other leaning persons involved in the movement, yes. There are also many conservatives involved. These conservatives see that this country is off track, that the top 1% of wage earners have taken too big a share of the economic pie and are joining in the fight for economic justice--which isn't the only issue of the occupy movement by a long shot. The cops did instigate the violence in Oakland, when they cowardly raided the camp at 4:30 in the morning while most of the protesters were sleeping. And there were children, elderly and handicapped people in the camp. It was a despicable show of force. For months, we watched the tea party hold rallies where some of their members carried guns, carried vile signs and spewed hate speech, but they were never told to disperse. The right would have had a field day about their first amendment rights if they had been told to disperse. A few months ago, Oakland chief of police announced his department would no longer respond to report of non-violent crime because of budgetary problems...yet they spend thousands of dollars to break up a peaceful protest. And here is the link (sorry firm, treasure and everybody else) http://jonathanturley.org/2010/07/13/oakland-police-announce-they-will-not-respond-to-various-crimes-like-burglary-grand-theft-and-other-crimes/

DomKen -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:17:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So by your logic, if the police think a group might become violent they are allowed to violently break up a peacefull assembly and if the attacked civilians defend themselves that justifies the police's violence? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? The problem you see is the one you've imagined. Ordering someone to disperse (with words) is not violent. The violence is the rocks and bottles being thrown at the cops. Have you seen the various videos and photos of the police assault? It's pretty clear the police version is lies. For instance they claim to have not used flash/bang grenades despite there being a clear video, I posted a link upthread, of an officer throwing one into a group trying to come to the aid of a critically injured person.

erieangel -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:23:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So by your logic, if the police think a group might become violent they are allowed to violently break up a peacefull assembly and if the attacked civilians defend themselves that justifies the police's violence? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? The problem you see is the one you've imagined. Ordering someone to disperse (with words) is not violent. The violence is the rocks and bottles being thrown at the cops. Have you seen the various videos and photos of the police assault? It's pretty clear the police version is lies. For instance they claim to have not used flash/bang grenades despite there being a clear video, I posted a link upthread, of an officer throwing one into a group trying to come to the aid of a critically injured person. Some people don't care about the truth, the lies that are spewed to justify what they want to happen are fine with them. It is, after all, how we got into Iraq.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Back onthe topic of completely unnecessary police violence http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OZLyUK0t0vQ Why exactly was it necessary to throw a flash bang grenade into a group of people coming to the aid of an injured man? What concerns me more is how skewed your perspective is. First, the crowd was being dispersed by the police. Then, they all seem to return, en mass, back to the area they were being dispersed from. This prompts the police to use a "flash bang" to disperse them again. In the crowd of protesters, I saw no uniformed EMTs, no doctors or nurses in scrubs and acting in accordance with first responder duties. I saw a crowd that was being dispersed suddenly turn and willfully walk back to the very area they were being dispersed from. When an armed officer sees a crowd advancing on his position, he has but a moment to make a choice which will determine whether his kids grow up without a father. Who is better equipped to help an injured protester? Police officers trained as first responders, or an angry mob advancing on the position of armed officers? Do you jump out of your car, defy officers, paramedics and firefighters to run up to help an accident victim because you know better than they do? I doubt it.

errantgeek -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:25:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you seen the various videos and photos of the police assault? It's pretty clear the police version is lies. For instance they claim to have not used flash/bang grenades despite there being a clear video, I posted a link upthread, of an officer throwing one into a group trying to come to the aid of a critically injured person. Not to mention the police claims of no LRAD deployment yet photos of it deployed to Oakland, claims of no bean bag or rubber shot fired yet photo evidence of spent shotshells and less-lethal rounds from the Oakland areas...there's a credibility gap large enough to cast anything the police department or municipal government has to say in serious doubt. quote: What concerns me more is how skewed your perspective is. Seriously? The video shows the officer who threw the flashbang, he was watching what happened like a hawk. You know, when the protesters were standing by the guy and screaming and gesturing for help, and a handful of other protesters walked slowly towards the downed one with absolutely no aggressive body language or movement towards the barricade or the officers. Then, you know, bending down to check the guy and pick him up. Then the officer threw the flashbang straight into the handful of people who were undeniably and unambiguously trying to help someone, especially to someone that had been specifically monitoring that group of people. That officer knew damned well they were moving to help a wounded protester and had absolutely no aggressive or violent intent, least of all towards the cops. He threw the flashbang anyway. Entirely indefensible from any ethical standpoint.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:29:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: errantgeek See, the thing is according to most reports I've read, This is pretty much where your argument falls flat. You weren't there. The cops were. And they reported being attacked. You seem content to believe reports from random strangers. I'm more content to believe someone who signed on and took an oath to do a thankless job that everyone seems to think they can do better, but never volunteers to prove it.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:33:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you seen the various videos and photos of the police assault? It's pretty clear the police version is lies. Because you say so? I don't agree.

erieangel -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you seen the various videos and photos of the police assault? It's pretty clear the police version is lies. Because you say so? I don't agree. Are you going to believe what a cop says to save face and "make" what his department did legal, or are you going to believe video after video after video to the contrary?

errantgeek -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:36:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror This is pretty much where your argument falls flat. You weren't there. The cops were. And they reported being attacked. You seem content to believe reports from random strangers. I'm more content to believe someone who signed on and took an oath to do a thankless job that everyone seems to think they can do better, but never volunteers to prove it. ...and as I said, Oakland cops, and cops in general, are so credible and trustworthy. Especially in this circumstance, when it's been demonstrated with video and photo evidence a serious credibility gap exists.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:42:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel Are you going to believe what a cop says to save face and "make" what his department did legal, or are you going to believe video after video after video to the contrary? The way this question is phrased suggests there's only one answer you would accept. It's not one I'm prepared to give you. You see, in AMERICA we have this thing about being innocent until PROVEN guilty BEYOND a reasonable doubt in a COURT OF LAW. Not by what some guy (who's never put his life on the line for others) wants to claim in the media. Silly me for bing more apt to believe something said by someone making almost poverty-level wages and who took an oath to protect others.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland (10/26/2011 10:46:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: errantgeek ...and as I said, Oakland cops, and cops in general, are so credible and trustworthy. Especially in this circumstance, when it's been demonstrated with video and photo evidence a serious credibility gap exists. Right. Well you just let me know when a jury finds any of them guilty of a crime. Until then, I'll just take your comments to their credibility with a grain of salt. It's funny how in this country everyone seems to enjoy the benefits of being innocent until proven guilty....except those who took an oath to protect people. Makes me glad I never became a cop. I couldn't defend people who would spit on me daily just because of the uniform I wore.

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