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RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/27/2011 11:34:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Couple things, do we have an actual percentage calculated for those years from book? Cuz even today the actual taxes (as you have alluded to with a partisan snipe) are still far below book. And everyone wants to point that out the one way but not the other, and we have no known actual percentages on either, its like as useless as fuckin the laffer curve with a doily on the your cock as a safe.

Secondly, one of the issues with eisenhower levels is that my father made $0.95 cents an hour as a construction electrician. That would have to be worked out in detail.

Ron,

No, I don't know all the actual figures, and I don't really see much reason to go and figure them out right now.

Basically, I was pointing out the error in erie making the bald claim that "it was 90% and everything was grand!".  Which your comments also support. 

So it seems we are really on the same side here. 

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/27/2011 11:46:14 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		More or less, but not sure how much.

Before one goes off and says yeah but to some of these theoretical hellacious 90% or 32% or $0.95 an hour, it would be something behooveful (if I can mash a word) of people to have some solid and researched real data, and spending didn't really go up to much, well, yeah--some LBJ relatively...it has gotten out of hand after.

But there needs to be tax with spend, and have some idea what we CAN spend on to do the most good with what is there, what is in our means, hell even the nastiest stingiest capitalisticist conservatisistic republican like you I am sure if you said look, heres 10 bucks thats what we can afford for the guys laying in the gutter, would; happening upon a guy in the gutter, even being skint yourself would try to do something.....so, lets all keep that in mind for the most part of the republicans......

And the old shit-for-brains saw that decreased regulation (without care for what those regulations are and where they eminate from) and lower lower lower lower taxation on corporations and wealthy is definitely the way to go, with generalized data that has not been normalized and analysed is fuckin madness, since it does not meet the surface scanning of it.

Low spending, high taxation on the rich seems to be where the sweet spot is at.

I do not think that either extreme is good policy. And even crying about high taxes on corporations now, with Exxon turning in a 41% increase in profits and a hell of a lot more corporations than GE not paying much in the way of taxes, that don't fit anyones taxes are too high and spending is too high talking points either.

Hell, anyone sits down and thinks for a minute, we are wasteful in our spending, do not spend on the right things, try and take on too much and have a stupid fucked up tax law.

And the house deal kicking our fuckin debt down the road another 5 years is as irresponsible as it gets. Interest payments are eating us alive. Hell by that time there wont be a 100th of a 100th of a 100th percent of budget that is malleable.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 10/27/2011 11:49:46 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/27/2011 12:47:33 PM   
Edwynn


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They hate Warren Buffett, they love Charles Koch.


That explains 99% of the problem right there.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 10/27/2011 1:10:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 5:01:19 AM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek
Most occupy groups have organized and self-identified (visually and verbally) volunteer medic corps, who are generally trained first responders at least.


Bullshit. This "movement" is anything but "organized." Furthermore, I saw no protesters wearing EMT uniforms nor carrying signs indicating such. I saw a group of civilians advancing on a police barricade, in direct defiance of crowd-control initiatives used by armored, armed police. To any rookie cop or veteran, when a crowd sees a group of armed and armored police officers and STILL advances on their position, the police HAVE to assume and prepare for the worst, lest they take a risk of orphaning their kids that night.

quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek
Telling enough, in that video there were no visible, attending medical professionals in the event a protester or officer was injured. Also telling enough, despite the fact there was a clearly-wounded person on the ground absolutely no attempt was made by the police to secure the immediate area or the injured person, temporarily extend the barricade to secure the injured person nor even a warning given to stay back so the injured person could be secured.


Wanna try and guess why? Go ahead. Take a guess. Medics aren't armored *or* armed. The barricade marked the "front lines" as it were. Medics don't come in until order is restored. How many medics do you see rush into a hostage situation while the police wait outside? How many medics rush into a prison riot while the doors are still locked and the tear gas is still flying? NONE. You have to secure the area BEFORE letting the medics in to do their jobs or you're just adding potential victims. This ain't rocket science dude.

Had the group of protestors continued dispersing, you'd likely have seen the police move up, call in medics and tend to the injured. But when the crowd turned around, the area was still unsecure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: errantgeek
Moreover, the demonstrators were clearly by body language and by actual movement not advancing on the barricade and had no hostile intentions towards the police. To wit, they were moving slowly and intentionally towards the injured person clearly indicating their intent to help the injured person through voice and body language. Moreover, officers were actively monitoring the situation, including the one who intentionally waited until the protesters had gathered around the wounded person to throw the flashbang.


That's what you claim. You weren't there. We're going off the same video and I see something different. Remember, much like sports fans picking apart their team's decisions on Monday at the water cooler, you have days and weeks to second-guess a choice that had to be made in SECONDS on the scene. Again -- armed, armored officers, crowd moving in....seconds count. Do you want to see your wife and kid tonight? What do you do? It's easy for you to answer now, you have all the time you need. You can look at the question now. Watch the video, make a choice, watch the video some more, re-think your choice, watch the video again, eat lunch, watch the video again, think some more.

Cops get SECONDS to make that choice that you're spending a week picking apart.

Oh...and about your 'expert' analysis on when the flashbang was thrown -- those things are devices that make a loud "bang" (hence the name) and a bright flash of light. The further you are from the device when it goes off, the less effect it has on you. Thus, to ensure maximum dispersal, you have to lob it directly into the room you're entering or, as in this case, the group you're trying to disperse. That's kinda how they work.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 5:04:24 AM   
DarqueMirror


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Try this one on yourself....


And? I don't see anything in that graphic about the link I posted. Nor do I see you addressing that link. The top "1%" pays 40% of all taxes. The "53%" apparently pay the rest. So then you have 47% left who pay NOTHING yet feel as though they are entitled to everything.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 7:49:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Lets try and get this through your conservative head.

They pay nothing because.... and really try and allow this to sink in.... because they have nothing.

While you are off whining about what people are not paying, you are supporting corporations who control a vast amount of wealth utilizing every tax loophole they can find to shelter as much money as they possibly can.

As fas as the lower 50%....

quote:

So then you have 47% left who pay NOTHING yet feel as though they are entitled to everything.


Excise taxes, sales taxes state and local income taxes... exactly what taxes am I, who is in that lower 50%, not paying? Hell, I paid into the federal government last year, and will do so again this year. Most people in that income bracket dont pay because they have children... and get the exact same credits as anyone who has a higher income for deductions. The only change is in Earned income credit. Compared to the tax credits corporations get and the rich get on their returns, its a drop in the bucket.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 10/28/2011 7:54:57 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 8:14:13 AM   
errantgeek


Posts: 156
Joined: 6/20/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Snip.


Bullshit.

I'm not an LEO, MP, or emergency responder and not specifically trained to actively monitor emergent situations, watch body language and detect signs of hostility, and the first things I noticed on my very first viewing of the video were:

1. The crowd did not approach the barricade. They approached the wounded individual.
2. They approached slowly, clearly stating their intent to help the wounded individual who was in plain view.
3. They deliberately made an attempt to display no hostility towards the officers, in movement or body language.

The officer who threw the flashbang, however, is an LEO and is trained to actively monitor the emergent situation, watch body language and detect hostility. And he was actively monitoring the situation, as is clear in the video. And he threw the flashbang anyway. That same time window you cite as being necessary to ensure maximum dispersal was also quite outside the "seconds" the officer needed to make a snap judgment about the crowd and enough of a time window to assess the (inexistent) hostility of the crowd.

As far as occupy medics? These guys aren't organized and clearly identified?



[image]http://www.flickr.com/photos/62159569@N08/6215834089/[/image]

Let me guess, your next move is to claim they weren't wearing EMT or paramedic uniforms and don't count. Which kind of defeats the entire purpose, doesn't it? Other than the fact, that you know, one of the guys in the photos is wearing an EMS vest.

And, I notice you keep harping on the "but there could have been a riot!" line. No shit. We're talking about Oakland, a city with a long history of police/civilian tension, riots, and unrest. The whole thing started when riot-geared cops kettled and entered an encampment in pre-dawn hours without prior warning, forcefully evicting protesters and employing riot dispersal gear without provocation. Everything else was a consequence of that singular action. It's utterly amazing, the possibility that a disproportionate response by police may anger people, put them on the defensive, make them skittish and much more likely to riot when a violent conflict would otherwise be avoidable through conflict resolution, isn't it.

< Message edited by errantgeek -- 10/28/2011 8:16:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 8:52:58 AM   
nighthawk3569


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Civil disobedience...and in some cases...violence. The same agenda that worked so well for the civil-rights movement in the 60's. Rock on, OWS...and all the affiliates!
'hawk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

The vast majority of demonstrators are actually employed, and the proportion of protesters unemployed (15%) is within single digits of the national unemployment rate (9.1%).


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204479504576637082965745362.html

The paragraph leading into that quote reads...

Our research shows clearly that the movement doesn't represent unemployed America and is not ideologically diverse. Rather, it comprises an unrepresentative segment of the electorate that believes in radical redistribution of wealth, civil disobedience and, in some instances, violence. Half (52%) have participated in a political movement before, virtually all (98%) say they would support civil disobedience to achieve their goals, and nearly one-third (31%) would support violence to advance their agenda.

Do you think those findings are accurate too?

K.


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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 8:59:21 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
After seeing these calls for violence, I wonder how anyone could take the claims of unwarranted police brutality seriously

quote:

ORIGINAL: nighthawk3569


Civil disobedience...and in some cases...violence. The same agenda that worked so well for the civil-rights movement in the 60's. Rock on, OWS...and all the affiliates!
'hawk



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(in reply to nighthawk3569)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 9:00:40 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

After seeing these calls for violence, I wonder how anyone could take the claims of unwarranted police brutality seriously


Because the police are supposed to be above it all, Sanity. They took an oath to protect... that means even those at protests they dont agree with.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 9:06:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, a poll of 200 people by a wsj poll analyst is the definitive shizits and the last word in asswipe.

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 10:02:21 AM   
nighthawk3569


Posts: 283
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

quote:

And when it does turn to a violent riot, I assume you will hold the police blameless?
no, because it has already turned fucking violent, and since it is the cops who have instigated the violence all along, i will hold them 100% completely at fault.


Absolutely correct! Although the street police always claim 'only doing my job' 'only following orders', they should know better. Actually, it's mayors, police chiefs/commisioners and governers who are ultimately responsibile.

'hawk

< Message edited by nighthawk3569 -- 10/28/2011 10:04:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 10:27:26 AM   
nighthawk3569


Posts: 283
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


After seeing these calls for violence, I wonder how anyone could take the claims of unwarranted police brutality seriously

quote:

ORIGINAL: nighthawk3569


Civil disobedience...and in some cases...violence. The same agenda that worked so well for the civil-rights movement in the 60's. Rock on, OWS...and all the affiliates!
'hawk



Not a 'call' for violence, at all. You seem to be saying that a method that worked so well for one group of Americans shouldn't be used...or even allowed to be used...by another group of Americans.

'hawk

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 6:33:10 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Lets try and get this through your conservative head.


LoL I need to show this bit to my coworker who keeps calling me a liberal. He'll get a kick out of it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
They pay nothing because.... and really try and allow this to sink in.... because they have nothing.


Exactly my point. They have nothing and want the taxpayers to provide for them instead of working to better themselves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
While you are off whining about what people are not paying, you are supporting corporations who control a vast amount of wealth utilizing every tax loophole they can find to shelter as much money as they possibly can.


And while these protesters are whining about corporate greed, they shooting video on and tweeting with their iPhones, iPods and Macs. They're supporting the very thing they claim to be against.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 6:33:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Because the protesters... gasp.. have jobs.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 6:41:50 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: errant geek
Bullshit.

I'm not an LEO, MP, or emergency responder and not specifically trained to actively monitor emergent situations, watch body language and detect signs of hostility, and the first things I noticed on my very first viewing of the video were:


I'll stop you right here. Because this is the important part. "Viewing the video".....from the safety of your home or work, at your desk, soda nearby, etc. *Nowehere* near the conflict in the heat of the moment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: errant geek
As far as occupy medics? These guys aren't organized and clearly identified?
Let me guess, your next move is to claim they weren't wearing EMT or paramedic uniforms and don't count. Which kind of defeats the entire purpose, doesn't it? Other than the fact, that you know, one of the guys in the photos is wearing an EMS vest.


No, they aren't clearly identified. They look to me like civilians playing dress up with piecemealed stuff to try and resemble medics in the hope of confusing the police. (Notice the masks on some of them?) Doctors, nurses an EMTs were regulated uniforms for a reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: errant geek
And, I notice you keep harping on the "but there could have been a riot!" line. No shit. We're talking about Oakland, a city with a long history of police/civilian tension, riots, and unrest. The whole thing started when riot-geared cops kettled and entered an encampment in pre-dawn hours without prior warning,


But they were warned. There's the rub.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 6:43:11 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the protesters... gasp.. have jobs.


What does employment status have to do with their hypocritical support of the very thing they claim to protest?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 6:56:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Because you dont understand what they are protesting. You believe its wealth... and you are wong.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 7:01:43 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because you dont understand what they are protesting. You believe its wealth... and you are wong.


*They* don't understand either. I have yet to see two people in that "movement" agree on what the issue is.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Current raid on Atlanta...another in Oakland - 10/28/2011 7:02:31 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And I have spoken to many who know exactly what it is about.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 160
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