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RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 12:17:47 AM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		I just read an interesting article posted on the occupyerie.org forums.  It is by a marine who says that what happened in Oakland the other night is not even used in war.  In fact, such tactics are against the rules of engagement.  Hmmm.  The military isn't allowed to use tear gas, rubber bullets, bean bags and other "non lethal" projectiles against our enemies but the police are permitted to use those things against American citizens???

Here is the link:  http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-with-crowd-control-training-points-out-oakland-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10#ixzz1c98sHOJF

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 5:49:44 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Rosa Parks was warned to move to the back of the bus...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 5:53:45 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
I have an even better idea. HONOR THE 1st Amendment. So far the only criminal complaints filed against pretty much all of the protestors NATION WIDE are "unlawful assembly" convictions=ZERO, "criminal trespass" covictions= <100, And about 300 pleas down to civil trespass (because they could not be in jail any longer due to committments such as EMPLOYMENT ... Go figger).
   Not sure you really need a 'riot squad' for that.


I'll go one better. Let's make cops vanish from every protest area....totally gone. Free 1st amendment for everyone. Then, when the inevitable riot starts, keep them out, cordon off the area and just watch the whole place burn. Then, when people cry out for rescue, they can shrug and say "Dude....1st amendment.....they were being peaceful. I don't have any protection to go in and save you....sorry."


Your presumption that every protest devolves into a riot is charmingly naive. The 2nd Amendment is there so we don't need The Government to enforce our 1st Amendment rights. Just like the #OWS organizers setup custodial duties, there's no reason not to organize internal security duties. ( Everyone at the General Assembly is authorized should be simple enough... )

Personally, I think without the Police Agent Provocateurs, the likelihood of rioting approaches zero.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:00:47 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, all the other rot aside:

4. Assuming the person in the Navy uniform and person in the Marine uniform are in fact in the Navy and the Marines both of them violated the UCMC and are subject to Courts Maritial under the UCMJ. Note: The POTUS and several very prominent Democratic members of Congress have publically expressed support for the OWS protests and, therefore, have made any/all such events political in nature.

Civilian police dont have a fuckin thing to do with ucmj and they werent holding them for military authority.

Thanks for playing, try to post on topic.

Did you say something intelligent? Didn't think so.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:20:20 AM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You REFUSE to think that a policeman could have fucked up either intentionally or accidentally.


Now we have a stunning example of *your* refusal to read. I've already stipulated many, many times that it could have been an accident. I've stipulated that he could have fucked up. UNLIKE YOU, however, I refuse to bash the guy just doing his job simply because he has a badge on his chest. I'm perfectly willing to wait until *ALL* the facts come out and he's CONVICTED of a CRIME before I bash the guy.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
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RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:36:40 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
If the law states you cannot shoot into a crowd.... but you do.. who is at fault?


Not relevant. The cops, as sworn peace officers, are authorized to use weapons when necessary.

The law does not allow LEO's to use lethal force except when their lives or the lives of others is in imminent danger. That was not true when the OPD shot at the head of a protester. The only way less lethal munitions were legalin that circumstance was if they were used in the precise ways that make them less lethal. For bean bags and rubber bullets that means no torso or head shots (ample evidence exists that those were hit people in the head and torso). For tear gas grenades it is required that they not be fired in such a way as they could hit anyone. So the OPD violated the law when Scott Olsen was injured.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
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RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:37:15 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Question is... who was the mob in this situation. Btw, thought you might want to see this.

quote:

OAKLAND -- Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, stood calmly in front of a police line as tear gas canisters that officers shot into the Occupy Oakland protest Tuesday night whizzed past his head.

"He was standing perfectly still, provoking no one," said Raleigh Latham, an Oakland filmmaker shooting footage of the confrontation between police and hundreds of protesters at 14th Street and Broadway. "If something didn't hit him directly in the face, then it went off close to his head and knocked him down."



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/27/BAD61LN3LM.DTL#ixzz1c9KLnYmx

He was standing in front of the police. No arc due to being lost in the crowd could have caused that damage. The Drs said he took a direct hit, so the idea that something went off close to his face is out of play.


Ohhhhh I love those quotes. Let's look closely, shall we?

quote:

OAKLAND -- Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, stood calmly in front of a police line as tear gas canisters that officers shot into the Occupy Oakland protest Tuesday night whizzed past his head.


Bullshit. Things are being shot at him and he stands there like an idiot? Bullshit. I don't care how many times you've been overseas. When you're shot at, you get the hell down.

quote:

...said Raleigh Latham, an Oakland filmmaker shooting footage ...


Where's the footage? Hmmmm....... Very curious.

quote:

"If something didn't hit him directly in the face, then it went off close to his head and knocked him down."


So even the so-called witness, who was supposedly shooting VIDEO of the incident can't say if they guy was hit directly? Very VERY curious.

His credibility just went right out the window.



Funny you should ask "where is the video"?

Here

http://vimeo.com/31187119

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:00:24 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How did they turn violent?


Seriously? This many pages in and you can still ask this question? They threw rocks, bottles, and paint (though somewhere I heard the paint came from paintball guns, which is even worse).

How about this. I'll use a paintball gun on you. You tell me if it feels like I'm being violent or not.


The threw rocks, bottles, and were shooting paintball guns? Where's the video of this alleged incident? You'd think if a cop saw someone AIMING A GUN AT THEM they'd respond pretty definitively... Well, again, the footage I've seen shows none of the events to which you are referring, so absent any other evidence to the contrary, we'll just dismiss these claims going forward....

Boston PD killed a woman with a headshot from a paintball gun, IIRC... She was peaceful and unarmed, too...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 10/29/2011 7:06:29 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 9:21:23 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You REFUSE to think that a policeman could have fucked up either intentionally or accidentally.


Now we have a stunning example of *your* refusal to read. I've already stipulated many, many times that it could have been an accident. I've stipulated that he could have fucked up. UNLIKE YOU, however, I refuse to bash the guy just doing his job simply because he has a badge on his chest. I'm perfectly willing to wait until *ALL* the facts come out and he's CONVICTED of a CRIME before I bash the guy.


Still supporting him I see. I notice you didn't respond to the article of 16 NY police with an average of almost a HUNDRED criminal charges against them EACH. What did several hundred of their coworkers do? Called the prosecuters "Pieces of shit" on the courthouse steps. If it were several hundred sivilians trying to intimidate prosecuters in a big case, Riker's Island would be welcoming a bunch of new residents. Since it's police, it's OK. Are you proud of that solidarity?
You seem to be because that's exactly what you are doing.
It's pretty evident that this was a clusterfuck by the numbers from the top all the way down but you support them.

You're saying that you are willing to wait until he is convicted before you bash him. I'm saying that they won't even look hard to discern who it was much less convict anyone. It will just be one of those mysteries that goes unsolved.

I find it laughable also that you want to wait for a conviction against someone who fucked up by the numbers and yet you call an ex marine a 'dirtbag' because his hair is longer than regulation and he has a piercing.

Can anyone else smell the hypocricy? It's like an open septic tank.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 10/29/2011 9:25:18 AM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:32:14 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The law does not allow LEO's to use lethal force except when their lives or the lives of others is in imminent danger.


He wasn't using lethal force. Try again.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:41:03 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Thats your opinion.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:42:52 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Funny you should ask "where is the video"?

Here

http://vimeo.com/31187119


LoL!!! THAT is your "smoking gun" evidence??? The canister he points out "in the air" is at least 12 feet over the guy's head. Then, the camera "suddenly" pans at least 30 degrees away from the guy he pointed out as Scott Olsen and then we see a bunch of sparks follwed by an on-screen question of if that's even the round that caused the damage.

Are you serious or are you jackin' with me? Let's get this guy to analyze the Kennedy assassination video because he's sooooooo on-point with not only analysis, but also top-notch camera work. /heavy sarcasm

< Message edited by DarqueMirror -- 10/29/2011 6:43:40 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:44:54 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats your opinion.


No, it's actually fact. If the ammunition type was supposed to be lethal, it wouldn't be called non-lethal or less-lethal.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:48:23 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Now why would I want to jack a guy I consider removed from reality.

You asked for the videos. I supplied them. If he had gotten the shot completely, then you would have cried that it was staged. It shows the young man doing nothing more than standing there. Next shot of the young man and he is on the ground, surrounded by people trying to take care of him.

Then comes the another shot in their direction... as they were leaving. Why did that shot come?

Why was there use of rubber bullets and bean bag guns when they are expressly forbidden?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 6:55:05 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Still supporting him I see.


Again, until there's a conviction, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I notice you didn't respond to the article of 16 NY police with an average of almost a HUNDRED criminal charges against them EACH.


And that's relevant to an Oakland officer who has yet to be charged how?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You seem to be because that's exactly what you are doing.


Not even close. But thanks for playing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You're saying that you are willing to wait until he is convicted before you bash him. I'm saying that they won't even look hard to discern who it was much less convict anyone. It will just be one of those mysteries that goes unsolved.


Now *that* is an opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I find it laughable also that you want to wait for a conviction against someone who fucked up by the numbers and yet you call an ex marine a 'dirtbag' because his hair is longer than regulation and he has a piercing.


Because calling a Marine who willfully goes against everything the Marines stand for a dirtbag is my *opinion* of him -- one that others share. However, calling a cop who's not even been charged with a crime a criminal is closer to libel. It's why media outlets must always use the term "alleged" when talking about those charged with crimes until they are convicted.

The difference is, you're trying and convicting a guy who hasn't even been charged with a crime. I'm just expressing an opinion based on what is in front of my own eyes. Serious, hang out on a Marine base when a group of them sees a guy like the one pictured. You'd be awfully surprised how they react.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Can anyone else smell the hypocricy? It's like an open septic tank.


That'd be you, I imagine. I can get you a dictionary to look up hypocrisy if you like.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:01:28 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You asked for the videos. I supplied them. If he had gotten the shot completely, then you would have cried that it was staged.


No. If they actually showed what you claimed, this would be over. As it stands, it doesn't show a damned thing. Even the guy shooting it can't say for sure what hit the guy. That's weak evidence no matter how you slice it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
It shows the young man doing nothing more than standing there.


Yes. In direct defiance of police orders. That's called "failure to comply" and it is a crime. At that point, he's responsible for whatever happens as a result.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why was there use of rubber bullets and bean bag guns when they are expressly forbidden?


Ah ah ah. Careful now. There's video of the tear gas, not the rest.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:03:17 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Sorry DQ,but the hypocrisy ( or the smell of it anyway) is coming from your direction.Decrying a rush to judgement on this unknown policeman is one thing,but doing so while you hammer this marine as he lays in the hospital is the proverbial bridge too far.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:05:41 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats your opinion.


No, it's actually fact. If the ammunition type was supposed to be lethal, it wouldn't be called non-lethal or less-lethal.



And the ammunition such as rubber bullets and bean bags are expressly forbidden.

At a press briefing Wednesday afternoon, interim police Chief Howard Jordan reiterated statements he made Tuesday night that police had used tear gas and bean-bag bullets to disperse protesters, but did not fire rubber bullets. He said the Oakland Police Department was investigating what munitions were used by the other law enforcement agencies that assisted OPD in its dispersal of Occupy Oakland protesters.

The Alameda County Sheriff’s Department told The Bay Citizen Wednesday that its officers used foam-like bullets, paint guns and tear gas Tuesday night. Officers use paint guns to mark unruly protesters for later identification and arrest, a spokesman said.

Four other law enforcement agencies that helped respond to Tuesday’s protest — the Berkeley Police Department, the San Francisco Sheriff’s Department, the Santa Clara County Office of the Sheriff and the California Highway Patrol — told The Bay Citizen their officers had not used any nonlethal projectiles. A spokesman from the San Jose Police Department said that his agency does not use rubber bullets, but that he did not know what other tools officers may have used. The Palo Alto Police Department, which assisted Oakland, diverted questions about its involvement to the OPD.

http://www.baycitizen.org/occupy-movement/story/hunt-rubber-bullets-occupy-oakland/

At least we now know where the paint came from.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 258
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:05:46 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry DQ,but the hypocrisy ( or the smell of it anyway) is coming from your direction.Decrying a rush to judgement on this unknown policeman is one thing,but doing so while you hammer this marine as he lays in the hospital is the proverbial bridge too far.


You'd be correct if all the "evidence" presented thus far backed up what my detractors are saying. However, all the video "evidence" shows is that the Marine is clearly guilty of failure to comply, at the least. Which means, he is the criminal, not the cop.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 259
RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marin... - 10/29/2011 7:08:31 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And the ammunition such as rubber bullets and bean bags are expressly forbidden.


Again, so far -- no evidence of the bean bags or rubber bullets. Try again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
At least we now know where the paint came from.


Riiiight. The cops shot themselves. Certainly no way a civilian could get their own paintball gun and bring it to the protest.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 260
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