RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (Full Version)

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Iamsemisweet -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:05:57 AM)

I have wondered why banks are so reluctant to reduce principal.  I think it is because the insurance doesn't provide for a voluntary reduction in the priincipal.  If they are not getting paid, they are not going to do it.

I live in a non deficiency state, so the bank can't get any kind of a judgment against the borrower once they have foreclosed, so I imagine this makes it easier for them to collect on the insurance.  They don't have a judgment to try and collect on.  Second and third mortgages are a much bigger problem here, although those lenders know they are vulnerable and are much more willing to consider a principal reduction.

Oh, and Edwynn?  My qualifications are education, both past and continuing, experience, and keeping abreast of changes.  That sort of thing.  I also have to stay, you are more interested in being "nannied" than I am.  But you are hardly worth engaging on this subject




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 12:04:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I have wondered why banks are so reluctant to reduce principal.  I think it is because the insurance doesn't provide for a voluntary reduction in the priincipal.  If they are not getting paid, they are not going to do it.


That is exactly why. It is all or nothing. Provisions could be addressed and put in place when this happened, and it was an idea proposed, but was shot down before even being discussed seriously.

quote:


I live in a non deficiency state, so the bank can't get any kind of a judgment against the borrower once they have foreclosed, so I imagine this makes it easier for them to collect on the insurance.  They don't have a judgment to try and collect on.  Second and third mortgages are a much bigger problem here, although those lenders know they are vulnerable and are much more willing to consider a principal reduction.


You touch on another problem where some of these toxic loans were houses sold with a 2nd morgage already attached to it. I have no clue how that worked but some of my neighbors were paying a total of $1400 to $1500 a month between two mortgages, for homes that were sold for 120k to 135k.

Things could have and can still be handled a lot better. Those measures need to be put into place now, for the future. When I went 50k into negative equity because of the market, I had many loan institutions calling me and trying to get me to just give up my home. The suggested first I qualify for a new home, then once secured let this one go back. This was financial institutions telling me this was the smart way to go.







Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 6:34:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

contra-evolutionary, or something.

Oh, and Edwynn?  My qualifications are education, both past and continuing, experience, and keeping abreast of changes.  That sort of thing.  I also have to stay, you are more interested in being "nannied" than I am.  But you are hardly worth engaging on this subject




My qualifications are in economics and finance. Sorry to break it to you, but the people responsible for busting the economy of not only the US, but much of the world are in the recently de-regulated financial industry. Not home owners. Read that last one again. Get that through your thick skull. I am in fact opposed to the "nannying" that you so gleefully provide to the home and job wreckers. That being the banks. You chose the wrong side, glad you can make a living from it.



PS

If your education extended far enough, you might be explaining to Lloyd Blankfein that it's not always a good thing upset the retirement situation of so many people with his CDOs.

But your education, such as it is, has found you to a good situation, as it turns out.


We don't want to go into the "too much of a good thing" territory here as regarding education.






Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 8:52:36 PM)


Sorry, but I am just too pissed off about this, and you are not helping matters at all.

Do you realize that loan sharks invaded poor neighborhoods by the hundreds? These loan originators convinced many a widow to re-finance, when they would never have taken such action on their own otherwise. But according to you, those who got suckered are the ones to be held "accountable" here.

A mortgage re-finance originator armed with an utterly incomprehensible contract that a lawyer was paid $10,000 to write vs. a poor black woman who's husband died 8 years ago that spent 50 years stamping cans. Who do you think would be the 'winner' here?

Fuck you, that's all I can say.

If I get banned then so be it.












Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 9:21:03 PM)


You DO realize that all the instructors in whatever classes you took were either bankers or realtors, right?

The "treating their house like an ATM" comment by you would be the dead giveaway, there. You let that one slip.







Iamsemisweet -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:03:08 PM)

Really? I thought they were lawyers.
Oh, and right back at you, babe.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


You DO realize that all the instructors in whatever classes you took were either bankers or realtors, right?









Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:18:01 PM)




Not taught by lawyers or bankers or realtors on this end. Though my last professor in Industrial Organization and Market Regulation is hired as an expert witness on many court cases concerning regulatory matters.

The lawyers have to hire somebody who actually knows what he's talking about every once in awhile, however begrudgingly.






Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:34:26 PM)




Again, tell us what the home owners had to do with destroying the value of their largest asset, vs. the actions taken by the banks regarding the CDOs and the subsequent NINJA loans, the very aggressive loan originators and mortgage brokers? What did the lawyers tell you about that?

Oh, that's right, the partners of your teachers were busy in court defending those guys.








Iamsemisweet -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:42:47 PM)

Do you really think I am advocating for the banks, you moron?. I think there is plenty of blame to go around. The regulators, the legislatures, congress, real estate developers, local governments, mortgage brokers, appraisers, banks, and yes, home owners all played a part. But if you want to believe the home owners were all naive victims, go ahead. I don't give a fuck.




subdude17 -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:47:22 PM)

hey check it out! i saw a youtube vid. its funny as hell. the dude was saying to send those credit card app. envelopes back to the bank filled with junk mail, and u can send a little not along with it hahaha. they pay the postage on every one sent lol. so fill'em up with heavy shit.




Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:49:12 PM)


If you want to claim that people in their retirement could have seen any of this coming, or that people of whatever age could have seen coming what you have such a fucking cavalier attitude about, then I hope you go broke and find yourself on the street tomorrow.

People are hurting from this, people who absolutely don't deserve it, your poor excuses as a puppet aside, and they did nothing different than people had been doing for decades. Whatever the fuckhead lawyers told you otherwise.











Iamsemisweet -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 10:58:58 PM)

Not true. My parent's generation did not trade up their house every few years, pull out all their equity, and live on credit.
I find it fascinating that someone can believe that an HO who took out an adjustable rate mortgage with a teaser rate, was informed that the payment could increase substantially, and who used the equity in their house to buy a boat, is somehow an innocent victim. And I find it even more amazing that the homebuilders who knocked up subdivisions without any consideration of whether there were buyers for their crap houses are now considered victims too. But like I said, if you want to believe that it is all the bank's fault, go ahead. Hope that works for you.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
.

People are hurting from this, and they did nothing different than people had been doing for decades.








Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/2/2011 11:08:42 PM)



OK, who was it that changed the rules here? The home owners or the financial industry? Are you trying to tell us that home owners had the better lobby here, or had any lobby at all?

Who did Hank Paulson work for, again? Do you even know what the fuck a collateralized debt obligation or a credit default swap are?

I understand. The lawyers told you what they they told you; they said it, you believe it, that settles it.

I think everybody here has gotten that part.

In any case, were the banks cowering and shivering in the corner from poor black ladies DEMANDING! all this? What did your lawyer teachers say about that?

Oh, you mean they overlooked that? How could that happen?

Look, if this were  only about the housing market, and held to just that, then you could be happy in your ignorance, not give a fuck about retirees, etc. and be happy and all that (which you apparently are). Let's just overlook the inconvenient matter of  8 million jobs in the hole, etc. You already don't give a frap about retirees, so this shouldn't be difficult.

I know that it is convenient for you to think that everybody who has a mortgage should be put on the homeland security watch list and whatever, but the fact of the matter is that the regulatory structure changed drastically. The inconvenient part. Home buyers have never been any different.

Your lawyer teachers are on the side of the plunderers, and so are you.






kalikshama -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 6:12:54 AM)

Ok, who has some stats? How many loans were like this:

quote:

trade up their house every few years, pull out all their equity, and live on credit


and how many like this:

quote:

loan sharks invaded poor neighborhoods by the hundreds? These loan originators convinced many a widow to re-finance, when they would never have taken such action on their own otherwise.




tazzygirl -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 7:40:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Sorry, but I am just too pissed off about this, and you are not helping matters at all.

Do you realize that loan sharks invaded poor neighborhoods by the hundreds? These loan originators convinced many a widow to re-finance, when they would never have taken such action on their own otherwise. But according to you, those who got suckered are the ones to be held "accountable" here.

A mortgage re-finance originator armed with an utterly incomprehensible contract that a lawyer was paid $10,000 to write vs. a poor black woman who's husband died 8 years ago that spent 50 years stamping cans. Who do you think would be the 'winner' here?

Fuck you, that's all I can say.

If I get banned then so be it.






You are an extremely angry young man. Maybe you need a break.




tazzygirl -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 7:43:05 AM)

quote:

was informed that the payment could increase substantially


Not everyone was so informed... some contracts didnt even make that plain. Many people were taken in.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 7:53:15 AM)


Example? What's plain? The Notes I have read explain it, and those teaser loans were marketed as low payments, for a few years. People may not have understood it, or read it at all. Doesn't mean that it wasn't in there.
But if it wasn't, people could and should sue the banks.
This is andecdotal, but the ones I have run across in this situation simply believed the value of their house would increase during the low payment period and they could refinance before they had to pay the higher rate.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

was informed that the payment could increase substantially


Not everyone was so informed... some contracts didnt even make that plain. Many people were taken in.




tazzygirl -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 8:54:35 AM)

Hard Sell
To get the deals done, banks have turned increasingly to unregulated mortgage brokers, who now account for 80% of all mortgage originations, double what it was 10 years ago, according to the National Association of Mortgage Brokers. In 2004 banks began offering fatter sales commissions on option ARMs to encourage brokers to push them, says Gail McKenzie, assistant U.S. attorney in Atlanta, who is investigating mortgage brokers for improper practices.

The problem, of course, is that many brokers care more about commissions than customers. They use aggressive sales tactics, harping on the minimum payment on an option ARM and neglecting to mention the future implications. Some even imply verbally that temporary teaser rates of 1% to 2% are permanent, even though the fine print says otherwise. It's easy to confuse borrowers with option ARM numbers. A recent Federal Reserve study showed that one in four homeowners is mystified by basic adjustable-rate loans. Add multiple payment options into the mix, and the mortgage game can be utterly baffling.

............

Jennifer and Eric Hinz of Somerset, Wis., are feeling the squeeze. They refinanced out of a 5.25% fixed-rate, 30-year loan in June, 2005, and into an option ARM with a 1% teaser rate from Indymac Bank. The $1,483 payment for their original mortgage dropped to as low as $747 with the new option ARM. They say they had no idea when they signed up, however, that the low payment adds $600 in deferred interest to their balance every month. Worse, they thought the 1% would last three years, but they're already paying 7.68%. "What reasonable human being would ever knowingly give up a 5.25% fixed-rate for what we're getting now?" says Eric, 36, who works in commercial construction. Refinancing is out because they can't afford the $15,000 or so in fees. "I'm paying more, and the interest is just going up and up and up," says Jennifer, 34, a stay-at-home mom. "I feel like we got totally screwed." They say their mortgage broker has stopped returning their phone calls. Indymac declined to comment on the loan's specifics.

..........

Stories like these can be found across the socioeconomic spectrum, says Allen J. Fishbein, director of Housing & Credit Policy for the Consumer Federation of America. In a May focus group, the CFA found that option ARM customers at all income levels said the loans were the only way they could afford their homes. While many recognized that their mortgages could increase, "they professed complete surprise that they could increase as much as they could," says Fishbein. That lack of diligence will cost them over time.



http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_37/b4000001.htm

This isnt every loan... but its not an isolated incident either.

A bad reputation
The fact that borrowers used ARMs as the only possible way to afford buying homes gave these loans their bad reputation during the initial part of the housing bust. Option ARMs with negative amortization offered homeowners deceptively cheap payments that were set to balloon upward a few years later. And while some banks, including Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC - News) and US Bancorp (NYSE: USB - News), didn't originate option ARMs themselves, plenty of now-vanished lenders, including Countrywide, Wachovia, and Washington Mutual, did. So now, Countrywide-acquirer Bank of America (NYSE: BAC - News), Wachovia-buyer Wells Fargo, and WaMu asset purchaser JPMorgan Chase (NYSE: JPM - News) have ended up with plenty of option ARMs.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/The-Last-Housing-Mistake-fool-268410976.html?x=0&.v=2&.pf=real-estate&mod=pf-real-estate

http://www.mtgprofessor.com/A%20-%20ARMs/marketing_arms_with_artful_deceptions.htm

Several years ago, my husband and I applied for a loan. We were not sure if we qualified since we only make $50,000 a year combined but the mortgage lender said we did and only had an interest rate of 1%. We thought this was suspicious but since we were able to buy the house, we have no complaints. After the third year, we noticed that our principal was actually increasing. The mortgage lender didn't mention this would happen and we may be facing foreclosure since our rate jumped to 8%. Can we take legal action for predatory lending?

..........

In your case, it appears that the mortgage lender failed to clearly and accurately disclose terms and conditions of the loan. The Truth in Lending Act (TILA) of 1968 is a United States federal law designed to protect consumers in credit transactions, by requiring clear disclosure of key terms of the lending arrangement and all costs. This case would be especially egregious if you stated to the lender that you weren't sure you could afford the loan and they still said that they could lend to you.


http://www.foreclosurelawfirms.com/legal-advice/neg-am-mortgage-scam.htm

"Countrywide used egregiously unfair and deceptive lending practices to steer borrowers into loans that were destined to fail," said Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan.

Her suit was filed on behalf of thousands of people in the Chicago area who Madigan says are in danger of losing their homes. Some 35 percent of Countrywide's sub-prime mortgages are reportedly in default.

Brown alleges that Countrywide Financial used deceptive tactics to push homeowners into complicated, risky, and expensive loans so that the company could sell as many loans as possible to third-party investors. According to the lawsuit, the company marketed complex and difficult to understand loans with very low initial or teaser interest rates or payments.

Countrywide employees, including loan officers, underwriters, and branch managers -- who were under intense pressure to process a constantly increasing number of loans -- misrepresented or obfuscated the fact that borrowers who obtained certain types of loans would experience dramatic increases in monthly payments.

The lawsuit charges that the companys deceptive marketing practices, designed to sell costly loans while hiding or misrepresenting the terms and dangers, included:

• Encouraging borrowers to refinance or obtain financing with complicated mortgage instruments like hybrid adjustable rate mortgages or payment option adjustable mortgages

• Marketing complex loan products by emphasizing a very low teaser rate while misrepresenting the steep monthly payments, increased interest rates and risk of negative amortization

• Dramatically easing underwriting standards to qualify more people for loans

• Using low or no-documentation loans which allowed no verification of stated income

• Hiding total monthly payment obligations by selling homeowners a second mortgage in the form of a home equity line of credit

• Making borrowers sign a large stack of documents without provider time to read the paperwork

• Misrepresenting or hiding the fact that loans had prepayment penalties


http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/06/ca_countrywide.html

Seems to me things were not "plain" enough... some were hidden... some lied about. Could they sue? Of course




tazzygirl -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 8:59:50 AM)

Lawsuit Amended... And settled with California

Brown’s amended lawsuit contains more evidence surrounding Countrywide’s “dangerous lending practices,” including individual cases where borrowers were deemed ultra-high risk but still granted an adjustable-rate home loan.

In one case, an 85-year old disabled veteran with a 509 credit score and a debt-to-income ratio of 60 percent was given a three-year ARM that defaulted just months later.

Another two cases highlight unsound underwriting decisions tied to the approval of pay option arms, which were eventually approved and defaulted upon within a year.

The amended suit notes that 19 percent of loans originated by Countrywide in 2005 were option arms, and that the loans carried a gross profit margin of about four percent, double those guaranteed by the FHA.

It also claims the mortgage brokers Countrywide took on as partners “misrepresented and obfuscated” the actual terms of these high-risk loans, playing down the impact of negative amortization and telling borrowers prepayment penalties could be waived if they refinance with Countrywide.


http://www.thetruthaboutmortgage.com/new-evidence-in-california-ag-countrywide-lawsuit/

LOS ANGELES — The state of California has reached a settlement in a predatory lending lawsuit against former executives at Countrywide Financial Corp. that will pour $6.5 million into a fund to help foreclosed homeowners.

The state had sued Countrywide, CEO Angelo Mozilo and President David Sambol under former Attorney General Jerry Brown. The 2008 lawsuit alleged that the company lured borrowers with low "teaser" rates on adjustable rate loans. Loan officers didn't tell borrowers that the rates would jump, that prepayments would be penalized, and the total loan costs would skyrocket, even if they made additional payments, the state alleged.

The settlement filed Wednesday in Los Angeles Superior Court says Countrywide agreed to pay $6.5 million to a Foreclosure Crisis Relief Fund. It will provide restitution, loan modification services and relocation assistance for foreclosed homeowners, plus money for state and local agencies to prosecute mortgage fraud, Attorney General Kamala Harris said.

The lawsuit claimed that Countrywide engaged in unfair business practices and false advertising laws with just about every action it took to market and originate some of the most popular – and potentially risky – types of home loans.

Countrywide allegedly loosened its mortgage standards and verification procedures and agents overrode warnings from a computerized underwriting system that analyzed the ability of applicants to repay.

The company paid higher commissions to agents who put borrowers into loans with higher rates and fees than they qualified for based on their credit scores.

In one case described in the lawsuit, the company provided a mortgage for an 85-year-old disabled veteran with such a low credit score and high debt that he defaulted on an adjustable rate mortgage in less than six months.

The state claimed that these practices led to tens of thousands of homeowners with Countrywide loans defaulting and losing their homes to foreclosure. The attorney general's lawsuit alleged that Mozilo and Sambol knew of these practices and allowed them to continue.

The state settled with Countrywide in October 2008, with the company agreeing to provide loan modifications and other foreclosure relief worth $8.68 billion nationwide, with $3.5 billion for California borrowers.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/02/countrywide-lawsuit-calif_n_817853.html

So, yes, it did happen.




Edwynn -> RE: Top Foreclosure Firm’s Homeless-Themed Halloween Party Pictures Spark Controversy (11/3/2011 9:02:28 AM)




quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Ok, who has some stats? How many loans were like this:

quote:

trade up their house every few years, pull out all their equity, and live on credit


and how many like this:

quote:

loan sharks invaded poor neighborhoods by the hundreds? These loan originators convinced many a widow to re-finance, when they would never have taken such action on their own otherwise.




The two situations are not entirely mutually exclusive.


In any event, one of the basics of finance is that the lender is responsible for loan quality and determining credit worthiness.

People know what they want to know. Or not, as the case may be. Using the search term "predatory lending" will bring up lots of info on this subject. One doesn't even have to go to the library anymore (though some of us still do).

I had LOTS of info on this and also the info on how Standard and Poors forced Georgia to rescind its anti-predatory lending law and forced NJ to desist from their attempt to pass a similar law, but my laptop fell to the floor, hard drive kaput, many bookmarks, downloaded pdfs, and all my written long papers on econ stuff lost. Oh well.

When S&P says they will refuse to rate the bonds of states trying to pass anti-predatory lending laws, you know this is serious. This might be an indication that a) there is lots of money being made from predatory lending, and b)  military coups are for third world countries, the more developed economies have financial industry usurpation of civil law instead. The ratings agencies were getting paid lots of money by the investment banks to put the fraudulent AAA rating on sub-prime-backed CDOs, the investment banks themselves making lots of money selling these to pension funds who had stipulations to buy only AAA rated securities.

The Office of the Comptroller of the Currency got in on the act too:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/13/AR2008021302783.html


So, take in all that, and then look at the bus tire (or tyre, hiya aussies!) tracks on Elizabeth Warren's back, and we might safely assume that you DON"T mess with predatory lending, especially not sub-prime mortgages.


To reiterate; the crash of the housing market is a direct result of financial industry actions, through various channels, by various means. When the rider steers the horse over a cliff, you cannot blame the horse.










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