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Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 8:54:34 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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I'm surprised that no one here is discussing the total collapse of MF Global this week.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/us-mfglobal-lawsuit-idUSTRE7A28R620111103
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/mf-global-bankruptcy-risk-management-corzine/story?id=14868344


MF Global, an investment firm which can trace its roots back to a trading firm founded in 1783 declared bankruptcy last Monday. It's CEO - John Corzine, former Governor of New Jersey and former chairman of Goldman Sachs (big surprise there) leveraged the firm 40-to-1, taking on approximately 44 billion dollars in debt to slightly over 1 billion dollars in equity and used this money to buy European debt, particularly Italian and Greek debt. When the value of the bonds dropped, MF Global couldn't cover the losses and began dipping into customer's private accounts to cover up the shortfall. Somewhere between 600 and 700 million of customer money is unaccounted for. As losses mounted, Corzine began looking to sell the company or merge with another firm but before anything could come of this, MF Global collapsed and the SIPC (Securities Investor Protection Corporation) stepped in shutting the doors and closing down the company. The FBI is currently investigating the allegations of fraud.

Isn't this exactly what all those "reforms" since 2008 were supposed to prevent? A securities firm led by delusional and overly-aggressive traders taking on massive and unsupportable debt, making crazy high-risk investments and then, when everything goes belly up - they walk away leaving the taxpayer with the bag? Even if John Corzine and his executives all end up in prison - that doesn't recover the money they lost, the company they destroyed, the workers now unemployed (about 3,200) or the loss of confidence in the financial system.

I put it to you that the current system of complex byzantine government financial regulations enforced by hordes of government employees "overseeing" massive financial firms is essentially unworkable on any level. The entire system needs to be scrapped and replaced by a much smaller, more concise and easily enforceable set of rules for financial firms much more in line with the original Glass-Steagall Act. Speculative investment firms should not also be allowed to function as commercial banks or service customer accounts. Much stricter margin requirements should be set in place, especially for massive investments. Minimum sentencing with harsh punishments for traders, brokers and executives who are found negligent or malfeasant should become law.

The current set of financial regulations doesn't even pretend to serve the purpose of safeguarding against this sort of thing, instead they function as barriers to entry, protecting the large financial concerns. Unless you can muster up a massive legal staff with decades of experience in financial law, you can't even begin to operate in this arena - reducing competition and keeping the same set of players in place. Those players know how to snake around the regulations, are so many light-years ahead of the regulators that by the time the government even understands the system the problems have metastasized beyond their ability to address, and are so intertwined with the government - the Oval Office, the Treasury, the Fed, and Congress - that sometimes they're even writing the rules they have to play by.

Anyone have any other viable solutions?

[Edited: Typos. Grammar.]

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 11/3/2011 8:58:50 PM >


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 8:59:00 PM   
tazzygirl


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Arent Republicans demanding the government return Corzine's money? Im just going on the assumption that his accounts have been frozen, but Im not sure.

Oops.. I misunderstood the news blurb. Seems the Republicans are calling for Obama to return the money Corzine gave to Obama's campaign.

Apologies.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/3/2011 9:02:02 PM >


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 9:44:03 PM   
tj444


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well, futures trading is very risky and that was the business the company was in.. But your article is about a shareholder of the company sueing the directors of the company for misrepresentation/fraud, as a shareholder he does not have protection and suing is the only way for him to possibly get anything back. I dont know if this kind of company is under fdic protection for clients accounts/money either..

I sounds like they transfered some client money some place (they havent figured out where yet) and some money was also sent to other brokers.

eta- this is amazing- what did this risk officer advise the company?
"Not only was there a risk committee, there was -- and still is -- a chief risk officer: Michael Stockman, 63, a visiting scholar at Dartmouth's Tuck School of Business"
"While Stockman did not respond to ABC News' request for comment, he apparently had plenty to say on the record while at Dartmouth. Asked during a Q&A why he opted to work for MF Global, Stockman described the slot as "a really cool opportunity for someone with my skills."



< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/3/2011 9:57:20 PM >


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 9:54:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I sounds like they transfered some client money some place (they havent figured out where yet) and some money was also sent to other brokers.


FFS... they dont know where???

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 9:55:37 PM   
popeye1250


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I totally agree on Glass-Steagall.

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 9:59:45 PM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I totally agree on Glass-Steagall.


Seconded. Obama blew it big by not bring this back the second he went into office.
And hey, how bout firing a few of the supposed SEC watchdogs...


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:01:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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The firing seems like a great idea to me.

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:07:49 PM   
FirstQuaker


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The Global scandal is just starting. - Missing Money? Insider Trading? MF Global Mess Is Far From Over


And some of their biggest troubles may be offshore - MF Global exit undermines Australia grains futures


They left a  lot of agricultural people hanging world wide, with frozen accounts and open bids and offers.


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:15:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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So the question remains... where is the money? Wouldnt a forensic accountant be able to find it?

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:34:11 PM   
FirstQuaker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So the question remains... where is the money? Wouldnt a forensic accountant be able to find it?


If it actually existed in the first place. Consider how a Ponzi scheme works.

The fools could have claimed on paper they made billions, or they had so much capital, or actually had so zillion many bushels of wheat futures,  etc. but few people expect them to actually keep that kind of cash or product on the premises to show the passing rubes. Never mind them borrowing money based on these fictions

Big money these days is created and distributed electronically.

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:35:05 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I dont know if this kind of company is under fdic protection for clients accounts/money either..


SIPC handles securities. FDIC handles bank deposits. I believe SIPC has guaranteed investors deposits up to $250,000 - but even there, in the end that means the government is underwriting part of the loss - and why should you and I and others have to pony up because John Corzine and his team decided to risk their entire company on eurobonds when the whole world is wondering if they're going to default?


quote:

I sounds like they transfered some client money some place (they havent figured out where yet) and some money was also sent to other brokers.


That's the fraud part. Someone will likely go to jail for that. Although, the politically well connected might get off and someone else will take the fall.


quote:

eta- this is amazing- what did this risk officer advise the company?
"Not only was there a risk committee, there was -- and still is -- a chief risk officer: Michael Stockman, 63, a visiting scholar at Dartmouth's Tuck School of Business"
"While Stockman did not respond to ABC News' request for comment, he apparently had plenty to say on the record while at Dartmouth. Asked during a Q&A why he opted to work for MF Global, Stockman described the slot as "a really cool opportunity for someone with my skills."


I would argue this is criminal negligence - both on the part of the "Chief Risk Officer", the CEO and the Board of Directors. Supposedly, this investment was so risky that if the price of the bonds fell by 2%, the firm would be insolvent. How is anyone able to make such a deal without oversight and approval?




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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:40:49 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So the question remains... where is the money? Wouldnt a forensic accountant be able to find it?


If it actually existed in the first place. Consider how a Ponzi scheme works.

The fools could have claimed on paper they made billions, or they had so much capital, or actually had so zillion many bushels of wheat futures,  etc. but few people expect them to actually keep that kind of cash or product on the premises to show the passing rubes. Never mind them borrowing money based on these fictions

Big money these days is created and distributed electronically.



Very much like the subprime lenders. Got it.

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:40:56 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I totally agree on Glass-Steagall.


Seconded. Obama blew it big by not bring this back the second he went into office.
And hey, how bout firing a few of the supposed SEC watchdogs...

forget firing a few of the sec and other watchdogs, fire em all! Madoff made them look like clowns and financial corps are doing whatever they want to do.

With this corp, the regulators started being concerned in JUNE..
"U.S. regulators started raising concerns about MF Global's European sovereign debt exposure as early as June, according to a source familiar with the matter, some four months before the company's collapse."

Seems to me that these guys were smart enough to figure out how to make money disappear, David Copperfield's got nothing on them..
""It now appears that the firm made subsequent transfers of customer segregated funds in a manner that may have been designed to avoid detection," said the CME, MF Global's primary regulator"

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/03/uk-mfglobal-finra-idUKTRE7A15AR20111103?type=companyNews

< Message edited by tj444 -- 11/3/2011 10:41:25 PM >


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:56:55 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
And hey, how bout firing a few of the supposed SEC watchdogs...


I think a batch of regulators, auditors (Price Waterhouse Cooper is the auditor of MF Global) and industry agencies should be in the dock for this mess along with the MF Global execs. This isn't subtle. It's not some obscure convoluted financial scheme involving cryptic securities you need to take a class to understand. The company took on way to much debt in what's probably regarded as the riskiest asset in the world right now. How did nobody notice this? Or somehow those that did either couldn't or wouldn't take action?

Apparently the reason the sale to Interactive Brokers Group fell through is that IBG didn't like the irregularities on MF Global's books and bailed on the deal. They managed to spot these problems (particularly the fraud) in a week or so. Regulators noticed something in June but hadn't taken action yet? What good are they?

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 11/3/2011 11:05:33 PM >


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/3/2011 10:57:00 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So the question remains... where is the money? Wouldnt a forensic accountant be able to find it?


I'll see you forensic accountant and raise you a horde of expensive lawyers and a handful of influential lobbyist.

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/4/2011 6:29:50 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
And hey, how bout firing a few of the supposed SEC watchdogs...


I think a batch of regulators, auditors (Price Waterhouse Cooper is the auditor of MF Global) and industry agencies should be in the dock for this mess along with the MF Global execs. This isn't subtle. It's not some obscure convoluted financial scheme involving cryptic securities you need to take a class to understand. The company took on way to much debt in what's probably regarded as the riskiest asset in the world right now. How did nobody notice this? Or somehow those that did either couldn't or wouldn't take action?

Apparently the reason the sale to Interactive Brokers Group fell through is that IBG didn't like the irregularities on MF Global's books and bailed on the deal. They managed to spot these problems (particularly the fraud) in a week or so. Regulators noticed something in June but hadn't taken action yet? What good are they?


Well, let's see.
-SOX ensures that, if there was fraud, and it sure sounds like there was, MFG's chair will be heading to jail. The rules have changed a lot in the last few years.
-In that same line of thought, if there was fraud, and it was detectable, then PWC is open to legal recourse, not just from the govt., but more importantly from MFG's shareholders/investors who relied upon PWC's audits. Now, high level fraud is often difficult for auditors to detect, and I would expect that to be PWC's defense, but they have a legal obligation to do due diligence-if it can be shown that they were negligent/derelict in their duties, it would be great news for those who lost cash because they have a good chance to recoup at least part of it from PWC, or more accurately PWC's insurers. PWC may be in line to take multi-billion dollar hit here.
-As for the regulators, yeah, they knew the bank was exposed. But it's not their job to prevent failure.That's part of the risk of investing. That said, damn, someone needs to just pour through the SEC, fire everyone and start fresh.



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to the whackadoodle leftists here - 11/4/2011 6:31:22 AM   
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You do realize that Goldman Sachs was the top contributor to the o'dumbo campaign? You do realize as soon as your Dear Leader seized power, these wall street types took top positions in his government? Now, can you connect the dots? Anybody? Bueller? Hello?

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RE: to the whackadoodle leftists here - 11/4/2011 6:49:10 AM   
jlf1961


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I find it really funny that when liberals referred to President Bush as the chimp or shrub, the Republicans got bent out of shape and said it was being disrespectful to the office of the President.

But, they refer to Obama in just the same style and manner.

As far as contributions to presidential campaigns go, look at all the big corporations that contributed to Republicans during the last Presidential Race, the last mid term, AND this race.  Corporations that are OUTSOURCING jobs overseas, that want FEWER regulations and government oversight on pollution, business and banking.


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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/4/2011 7:02:46 AM   
tj4444


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..

< Message edited by tj4444 -- 11/4/2011 7:03:39 AM >

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RE: Another Wall Street financial meltdown... - 11/4/2011 7:07:45 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
-As for the regulators, yeah, they knew the bank was exposed. But it's not their job to prevent failure.That's part of the risk of investing. That said, damn, someone needs to just pour through the SEC, fire everyone and start fresh.

Thats part of the risk? Imo its not part of the risk when the brokerage firm that is supposed to represent you is lying to you thru their teeth. There are enough risks with investing without that...

And, considering they were an established 230 year old company with a former Mayor at the helm.. that certainly would give investors the impression that they were actually reputable..

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