RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (Full Version)

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Padriag -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 10:44:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I do think psychology has insight to offer, but is an art, not an exact science, at least not a 'hard' science.

No, it isn't a hard science which is why definitions and methods of diagnosis seem (and too often are) very subjective.  But there's not reason it can't be a hard science, and no reason it shouldn't be one day.

And yes I was strongly influenced by Skinner's opinions on that.



cacodylic -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 1:08:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyV

quote:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 
(4) requires excessive admiration 
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations 
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends 
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her 
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


I see this list.. and I wonder why so many of you have such problems with diagnosing this as an actual disorder.  Does it hit too close to home?

I can say I'm close.. cept numbers 6 & 7.. and not sure #4 is entirely accurate of me either.

Most people have had most of those traits at one time. Some people have some of those traits all the time.  But not everyone has all of those traits at once all the time.

6 & 7 alone are indicative of someone not having a properly functioning conscience.  Which having an occaisional bout of it.. is normal.  But to constantly have the problem.. is dangerous.

My ex-domme showed all of these traits to an extreme, eventually all the time, which is why I chose to leave. But as long as a person is capable of functioning in the real world, can one really say that they have a 'disorder?' After all, the shrinks don't make their grand pronouncements until they have examined someone, whether that person is self-referred or referred by others.



Fawne -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 1:12:21 PM)

Hello :)
Padriag, yes -  you are correct. There is much hard science, especially as it is linked with psychiatry and so medicine and technology. It is just subjective, as are most things?

Oh.[sm=banghead.gif]
I am now out of this field. I should shut up. Plus, what I wrote about grad school... IS narcissitic, I am thinking. BTW, you know a lot about the subject (Not narcisstically! LOL), it would seem, IMHO.  Always thoughtful posts.

Thanks, Fawne



Fawne -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 1:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cacodylic
My ex-domme showed all of these traits to an extreme, eventually all the time, which is why I chose to leave. But as long as a person is capable of functioning in the real world, can one really say that they have a 'disorder?' After all, the shrinks don't make their grand pronouncements until they have examined someone, whether that person is self-referred or referred by others.


[:D] But if they don't give an official diagnosis... they can't charge for bill-a-ble hours! [:o] <Kidding... but not>

Sorry you have had such an experience.
best of luck, Fawne



Sunshine119 -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 1:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag


BTW, all personality disorders are behavioral disorders.  They are not genetic in cause, they are environmental in origin.  They are treatable but most behavior disorders are difficult to treat.  This is in part due to the problem of getting a patient to accept that they have a problem.  A narcissist presents a particularly thorny problem because their very problem precludes them accepting they have a problem (it violates their self image, something they will rigorously defend).  If you can ever get them to accept that much, you're more than half way there because at that point that idealized self image shatters.  Then you have the mess of helping them pick up all the broken pieces of who they are.



Ah Padriag, I must dissent.  I am of the belief that almost all emotionally and behaviorally challenged people in life are primarily the product of their genetic coding.  The only "environmentally" created mental illnesses are those that have been caused by trauma (such as rape, torture, beatings, etc..*NON-consensual, of course).

Having worked with the Human Genome Project in MD and also investigating the "Minnesota Twins Separated at Birth" studies, I sometimes wonder if the only thing we can actually choose is what we are having for breakfast.  I'm not trying to excuse anyone's behavior, but I do believe most things are physically induced.  We don't have to accept poor behavior and can try and mediate it in a number of ways, such as therapy, medication, prisons, etc when the behavior is threatening others or causing extreme self harm.

In 50 years or so, my guess will be that there will no longer be anything listed in any manual as being simply "mental illness" anymore than anything is listed as simply a "cough" today.



juliaoceania -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 2:17:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

My feeling is there are people that clearly have something "wrong" with them and are unable to function and have a very skewed version of reality.  Label it bipolar or one of half a dozen personality disorder or whatever you like -- if you interact with them long enough you get that it is just best to stay the hell away.

Yes, I realize bipolar is more a of a physiological illness sometimes controlled with medication.  Anecdotally I see more and more people being diagnosed as bipolar and exhibiting behaviors and characteristics that would be typical of various personality disorders.




Being bipolar does not exclude or include you from having a personality disorder.. I have known both kinds...lol. I have a friend that takes meds for being bipolar, happily married father. I have known the other kind.. and they are not my friends at all..lol



juliaoceania -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 2:27:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I do think psychology has insight to offer, but is an art, not an exact science, at least not a 'hard' science.

No, it isn't a hard science which is why definitions and methods of diagnosis seem (and too often are) very subjective.  But there's not reason it can't be a hard science, and no reason it shouldn't be one day.

And yes I was strongly influenced by Skinner's opinions on that.


Absolutely is a hard science when they are trying to figure out what parts of our genetic code determine personality and behavior... and they think that these things are intertwined. Nature nurture debate continues! BTW, medical science had it all wrong at one point or other with different diseases many many times. We learn things every day about the human mind... very fascinating stuff too. Psychologist follow the scientific method, that is what hard science is.



sharainks -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 2:48:56 PM)

Lord and Master,

Simply, for the most part diagnosing mental illness is insurance driven.  It is also an issue with Social Security  disability. If someone has schizophrenia and without a pill they have hallucinations or other symptoms that are so severe that they can't hold a job, have reasonably normal relationships with people, etc they go for that. Especially if  with the pill they can function normally have a job etc they believe that treating them is worthwhile. 

If one is dysfunctional due to their personality you can't treat that too well.  Insurance often balks at meds for these people because they don't work.  Some companies even balk at therapy,.

Furthermore people with personality disorders (Axis 2) do not usually qualify to get Social Security Disability.  People with treatable clinical disorders (Axis 1) who are severely impaired by their illness do often qualify.  Disorders like Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder, etc fall in this range. 

I'm with the person who stated if you ever met someone who really had one of these disorders you could tell something was wrong.  Instead of just saying that guy's a jerk, or "really out there" you now have a name for it.  Insurance companies don't find much of use in those terms.  They want a set standard description for what is going on and how it affects them.



ExistentialSteel -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 2:51:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

I don’t know if it is a certifiable psychiatric condition or not, but it is a trip to be around one. Much like being around a compulsive liar, it can almost be funny. They fabricate things to fit their story.

I’ve seen Doms this way. When it gets to be at the psychiatric disorder stage is when they start imagining they are some type of link to an ancient god or something and have the inherent right to be served.


ROFLMAO.  Would it help if i altered my profile to read:
 
"If You are laboring under the delusion that You are the reincarnation of Zeus, please do not email me."?
 
candystripper
 


Put that right after the line where you ask them about their teeth.



NastyDaddy -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 3:05:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

I do not know how many people are aware of a personality disorder called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It is basically (I am not a doctor so I am sorry if I butcher this), a person who has a self idealized image and belief in themselves that they are better or superior to everyone and searches out people and activities to give them external validation of their belief.

They are people who have to be the center of attention at all times. For example, might be in a group who are talking about American Idol but since they do not watch the show they try to very abruptly change the subject or explain how stupid it is. To them every boss and coworker is a moron and everything they do or talk about is phrased as vitally important or very noble.

They end up changing friends they hang out with every few years as they abandon them. They are quick to ask favors but never do favors for anybody and when confronted about something or a criticism they then go to personal and irrational attacks of the people confronting them.

The reason I bring this up is, I have had real life non D/s experience with a couple and in one case her parents tried to do an intervention for her.  I was wondering if anybody else has seen people with this disorder try to immerse themselves as Doms or Masters?

When I was active in a local community and several people I have corresponded with online have come off as very much having this disorder. I just think that maybe this lifestyle might draw people with the disorder as dominants in order to mistakenly find a sub or a slave to worship them and feed their addiction.

Please let me clarify one thing. I do not believe that you can be a Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress with this disorder. So I am in no way saying that a percentage of dominants have this. All I am saying is there might be some wolves in sheep’s clothing. To me these people that would be in the lifestyle almost certainly are without subs or slaves and/or go through them very quickly and always blame harshly the sub and slave for the failed relationship.

For me personally, I am always on the look out for this, because of my regular experience with a few narcissists that can be tough and painful.


I see, that must be what the hell my shrink was talking about... erps, nevermind!



Lordandmaster -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 3:36:09 PM)

Well, that's an interesting perspective, but maybe people with Axis 2 conditions SHOULDN'T qualify for disability benefits.  If you can't hold a job because something is physically wrong with you, that's one thing.  If you can't hold a job because you're a fucking asshole, it's hard for me to justify dunning the American population to support you.  And as much as I dislike insurance companies, I can't say that I find their position incomprehensible.  Being an asshole with nine specified characteristics isn't an insurable casualty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

Simply, for the most part diagnosing mental illness is insurance driven.  It is also an issue with Social Security  disability. If someone has schizophrenia and without a pill they have hallucinations or other symptoms that are so severe that they can't hold a job, have reasonably normal relationships with people, etc they go for that. Especially if  with the pill they can function normally have a job etc they believe that treating them is worthwhile. 

If one is dysfunctional due to their personality you can't treat that too well.  Insurance often balks at meds for these people because they don't work.  Some companies even balk at therapy,.

Furthermore people with personality disorders (Axis 2) do not usually qualify to get Social Security Disability.  People with treatable clinical disorders (Axis 1) who are severely impaired by their illness do often qualify.  Disorders like Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder, etc fall in this range. 

I'm with the person who stated if you ever met someone who really had one of these disorders you could tell something was wrong.  Instead of just saying that guy's a jerk, or "really out there" you now have a name for it.  Insurance companies don't find much of use in those terms.  They want a set standard description for what is going on and how it affects them.



lisa1978 -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:01:03 PM)

I really try hard to stay to the topic of a thread and I would think it is important to when I start a thread, but I am going off my topic here. Oops!

I will try to avoid the great debate of mental health and the profession of it outside of peronality disorders are not treatable by drugs. Sometimes people with them take drugs from the symptoms of them like depression.

As far as psychology using terms to explain things to give people excuses for their behavior, I disagree totally. I think it is the opposite. We in the United States have become a society of perfect people who must have an excuse or blame when things get screwed up or we screw things up. I think psychology, religion and other things just get used to support our beliefs and not the other way around.

Again I will say what many of us have said in this thread. You can argue about personality disorders are real until Tom Cruise and Brooke Shields come to our rescue, but if you have ever had significant direct contact with someone who has one, you totally understand this is not about one or two symptoms and at least a name for how these people live and behave is valuable.





TexasMaam -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:01:23 PM)

Just in case anyone reading this thread would rather find a few helpful resources rather than ascerbic, condescending, endless rhetorical debate, (no Lisa, I'm not referring to you, dear!), I found the following tomes to be of great value in learning a few new coping skills in dealing with the Narcissists in My life:

"Why is it always about You? Saving yourself from the Narcissists in your life" by Sandy Hotchkiss/James Masterson

"Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward/Craig Buck

"Children of the Self Absorbed: A Grownups Guide to getting over Narcissistic Parents" by Nina Brown

"Loving the Self Absorbed: How to create a More Satisfying Relationship with a Narcissistic Partner" by Nina Brown

Each was uplifting, encouraging, illuminating and a very worthwhile read, whether the Narcissistic Personality in question was a parent, coworker, family member, spouse or even just a friend.

They're all available at http://www.amazon.com

TexasMaam



Chaingang -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:04:20 PM)

I generally agree with LordandMaster, Fawne, and Padriag on this topic.

Psychiatry/Psychology are still very much in their infancy and we will someday look back on the many disorders listed in the DSM as utter crap. How do I know that's true? They have already backpedaled on several things like homosexuality, BDSM, and DIS (MPD) and I expect to see more backpedaling over time. I also have a problem with the cure for everything being Dr. Pill because there's just too much of a money motive there. In fact, I have the same problem with modern medicine more generally as I truly fear the culture of the medical community is shifting away from identifying problems and resolving them to one of ongoing therapy with expensive prescription drugs as helping with the symptoms but never actually curing the patient. Big Pharma rakes it in and the doctor makes a few more bucks every time you walk in to renew the script. Sweet!

The other problem I have is a bunch of non-experts on a website discussing the minutia of possible disorders without any of the necessary background for it. Assuming that there is at least something useful and meaningful behind the degrees awarded to Psychologists and Psychiatrists (which I doubt at least in part) most of us are not qualified to offer our opinions because we are merely lay persons with lay person type knowledge.

An ex-girlfriend of mine was/is involved in one of those multi-year ordeals of going to a Freudian Psychiatrist, she's been going for at least 7-8 years about twice a week. A little knowledge being a very dangerous thing, at some point she became convinced that her sister had Borderline Personality Disorder. When she discussed it with her doctor, the doctor more or less agreed with the diagnosis HAVING NEVER MET THE PERSON IN QUESTION IN ORDER TO MAKE A PROPER DIAGNOSIS. Let's just say that I was less convinced that the diagnosis was appropriate or that there was value to continuing therapy with someone that "presented" as a quack. I had to give up that relationship because of that kind of bullshit, at least in part.

Psychiatry is the new voodoo. Better than the old voodoo, but perhaps only by degrees.

I do believe that people can be helped by talking things through with a more objective party and that there really are cases where people are helped by medication - but I really think we have to leave some of that to the proper experts.

I also think it's fair to assume that at least some of what Psychiatrists come up with is still in the area of the unknown. It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall, the Psychiatric community is waiting to see what sticks - but they would never admit that to outsiders. But from the outside its pretty obvious. Why would they continually tweak the definitions in the DSM except that they must admit that the definitions are not always correct or useful?



Sunshine119 -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:21:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

An ex-girlfriend of mine was/is involved in one of those multi-year ordeals of going to a Freudian Psychiatrist, she's been going for at least 7-8 years about twice a week.


Was she rich or did she just have great health insurance?  And if she was so rich, WHY did you dump her?  Most insurance companies will only pay for 20 visits a year.  Consequently Freudian Psychiatry is circling the drain......as it should.  This kind of crap makes people dependent upon the psychiatrist for approval, attention, advice,etc.  You could have made her dependent upon you instead of the shrink!  Look at the money you lost in this opportunity.

You'd think they'd run out of things to talk about. 



sharainks -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:23:24 PM)

Chaingang I probably would have agreed with much of what you said before I went back to college and became a mental health professional.  Even while in college I tended to think people were medicated needlessly and that most of people's problems were solveable without diagnosis and medication.  I continue to believe that many people get misdiagnosed and too many meds are given that aren't needed.

Then once I got that piece of paper I went to work in a place that deals with profoundly mentally ill people IE a psychiatric facility.  Once I did that and actually saw what happened I became a firm believer in medication.  Watch a few hundred people come in totally filthy smearing their feces all over, eating it, listen to them talk to something that isn't there, be paranoid, etc.  Listen to their delusions and see how mental illness impacts their lives.

Then watch them change into a personable intelligent person who on the surface isn't any different than the rest of the population and you change your mind about the value of treatment for mental illness.  On one side of the fence is a person without a chance of being normal and a pill changes their possiblities enormously. 

While mental health may be in its infancy so is much of physical health care.  We still can't cure the common cold, people still die of cancer, no cure for diabetes, heart disease etc.  We treat many things but cure few in reality.



Chaingang -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 4:33:21 PM)

sharainks:

I quote myself so that there is no confusion:
"I do believe that people can be helped by talking things through with a more objective party and that there really are cases where people are helped by medication - but I really think we have to leave some of that to the proper experts."

There's little or no disagreement here that I can see. But I do reserve the right to QUESTION AUTHORITY.

=)

Sunshine119:

Fairly well off indeed. I guess I am just not that big of an asshole. I'll try harder next time!



Lordandmaster -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 5:38:42 PM)

Why does everyone keep assuming that you could not possibly have met a narcissist if you don't believe in NPD?  Believe me, I've met narcissists.  I work with one.  The word existed long before the alleged personality disorder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

Again I will say what many of us have said in this thread. You can argue about personality disorders are real until Tom Cruise and Brooke Shields come to our rescue, but if you have ever had significant direct contact with someone who has one, you totally understand this is not about one or two symptoms and at least a name for how these people live and behave is valuable.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 5:43:54 PM)

That would "acerbic," not "ascerbic."  I'll resist the temptation to say something condescending.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam

Just in case anyone reading this thread would rather find a few helpful resources rather than ascerbic, condescending, endless rhetorical debate



candystripper -> RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder (5/27/2006 6:07:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Why does everyone keep assuming that you could not possibly have met a narcissist if you don't believe in NPD?  Believe me, I've met narcissists.  I work with one.  The word existed long before the alleged personality disorder.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lisa1978

Again I will say what many of us have said in this thread. You can argue about personality disorders are real until Tom Cruise and Brooke Shields come to our rescue, but if you have ever had significant direct contact with someone who has one, you totally understand this is not about one or two symptoms and at least a name for how these people live and behave is valuable.



Well, as has been said, a diagnosis of any mental illness or personality disorder needs to be made by a psychiatrist.  WebMD, assuming You find it a reliable resource, says sufferers of narcissitic personality disorder are rare; but goes on to say few sufferers ever seek treatment, which seems like a contradiction.  A narcissit does not necessarially have the disorder, which causes the sufferer tremendous suffering.  I doubt such a sufferer could hold down a professional job, but hey, i worked in government, so who knows?
 
Frankly, i think sociopaths are rather common.  Maybe that's what Your coworker is.  Or maybe he/she is just a plain old fashioned f**ktard.
 
candystripper



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