RE: The Transgender Thread

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SweetCheri -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 6:49:43 PM)
quote: At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. Well not really, in a transgender person, the mind is what is important, you change the body to match the mind, not the other way around. It seems to me that the mind is now more important. And who is to say what gender the soul has, perhaps, if one admits the existence of a soul, the soul is where the true gender lies and the mind is just reflecting that.

OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 6:49:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: strawberryshake I would also like to emphasize that i have become a woman physically because i am and have always been a woman mentally and emotionally. I was completely uncomfortable and unhappy pre-transition and i do not get any satisfaction other than the comfort of normalcy from being this way. The trouble is that it's 'only your feelings', strawberryshake - or so others may imply (and sometimes even state, explicitly). At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. And may it ever be so.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 7:40:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetCheri quote: At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. Well not really, in a transgender person, the mind is what is important, you change the body to match the mind, not the other way around. It seems to me that the mind is now more important. And who is to say what gender the soul has, perhaps, if one admits the existence of a soul, the soul is where the true gender lies and the mind is just reflecting that. I wasn't clear. I'm talking about one of the underlying phenomena that I think is crucial to present society's antagonistic reaction towards the transgendered. It's implicit that, for many of those who are antagonistic, the assumption is, roughly, 'Your body tells me that you are female. Your subjective feelings [i.e. your mind, your soul] are not the 'crucial evidence' here. Your [present, untransitioned] body is.

DarkSteven -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 7:43:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. Well, naturally. Changing the body is possible now and it wasn't before.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 7:59:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. Well, naturally. Changing the body is possible now and it wasn't before. Not my point . . . . By 'nowadays', I mean - roughly, the early-mid twentieth century onwards. What I'm getting at is the prevalence of a materialist outlook - an empiricist outlook. The sort of outlook that, for instance, won't talk in terms of whether or not you feel happy, but in terms of a list of easily observable, and preferably quantifiable, facts. For instance, 'Middle class + educated + white + male + wealthy = happy' - and that's that. Except that that "= happy" bit would be left as an implication, because happiness/unhappiness are 'mere feelings'. I'm contrasting the fascination with hard facts like those aforementioned kinds of quantifications with, for instance, the fascination and yearning to know about the soul and all its contents, that typified the romantic era. A Hans Eysenck versus a John Keats.

SweetCheri -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 8:05:24 PM)
OK, I understand now. Sorry, I read it the exact opposite of what you meant. As it turns out, I agree with you. [:)] Thanks for making it clear.

strawberryshake -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 8:49:44 PM)
I don't use the word "soul" because im not so sure what it is(unless we're talking James Brown)lol. Soul implies something spiritual to me, and I'm not a spiritual or religious person. The best way I can relate to "soul", is that it is a perception of someones attributes.

OttersSwim -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 9:04:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: strawberryshake I would also like to emphasize that i have become a woman physically because i am and have always been a woman mentally and emotionally. I was completely uncomfortable and unhappy pre-transition and i do not get any satisfaction other than the comfort of normalcy from being this way. The trouble is that it's 'only your feelings', strawberryshake - or so others may imply (and sometimes even state, explicitly). At one time, soul used to be more important than mind, and mind more important than body. Nowadays, the order's been reversed. And may it ever be so. See now I took it as a religious view...so disregard my reply above please.

missygwen -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/21/2011 9:50:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt My interpretation of the labels (may not be your own): I would almost completely invert your versions of "crossdresser" and "transvestite." As I understand it, the "classic" definition of transvestite is someone who derives sexual pleasure from dressing in the clothing of the opposite sex (almost always, a man dressing as a woman). They may be of any orientation. For some it may be a fetish for one particular item (panties, stockings, heels) while others may go whole-hog. But the thrill is mainly sexual. Those who call themselves crossdressers, in my experience, are more prone to dress completely and to be concerned with passing. They may stay closeted but many do go out in public (or "semi-public" as I put it - places where it is accepted and they are unlikely to be seen by the mainstream community). They at least make some effort to behave correctly, and perhaps even get into the "mindset" of a woman, but it is not their intention to do so permanently or make a physical transition (though many dream about it). With crossdressers, a typical pattern is that it's something that the individual will experiment with in their late teens/college years, and then "put away," purging their wardrobe and embarking on a career, a marriage and family, etc. Then, when the kids are about grown and they are reaching the acceptance of self in middle age, it often comes back. These are the ones who wind up coming out to their wives after two decades of marriage. Complications often ensue. Many if not most crossdressers will deny that there is a sexual component to their avocation at all. (I take that with a grain of salt myself.) Most of the transvestites and crossdressers out there would label themselves as straight, but some are tempted into experimenting with men. "Drag" is another category, usually more in the gay scene, where there is usually more emphasis on flamboyance and glamour. Some drag queens may be transgendered, but many are not; most who are not are gay, and may be rather feminine even in male role. It's more of a "performance" than a lifestyle, although it can turn into both for some. "Transgendered" as you say are those who actually feel like their gender does not match their body, and whose goal is generally to live full time as their correct gender, with or without making a physical transition. "Transsexual" is not used so much these days, but when it is, is generally reserved for those who have undergone or are in the process of undergoing the physical transition (hormones, surgery, etc). And of course there are subcategories and spin-offs, such as the "sissy maid" and the transgenerational crossdresser (aka "adult little girl"), the drag prostitute, and others I am doubtless forgetting or may not know about.

Rule -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 3:41:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SixMore2Go It's like my old Grandda, bless his soul, used to say: "If it talks like an Englishman and thinks like an Englishman, then it can die like an Englishman" [sm=rofl.gif] I swear: From his very first post that I read, I have taken a liking to this Irishman. In my opinion he is an 'aanwinst' for these forums. He definitely stands out from the gray masses. And thank you 'Sunny's quote of the day' for pointing me at this post.

HeidiAnn -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 9:36:57 AM)
Fast reply, thought I'd bring my TG/CQ-point of view into this discussion. I transitioned in my early twenties and I identify as transgendered / gender queer. I have never had any sort of strong gender identity - either male or female and through living my life. I've come to understand that in the culture I live, I have no words to describe my gender experience. I feel that the reason I transitioned was not so much that I hated my body, but rather that I hated how everyone defined me based on my body (as a feminine gay boy/man). So for me personally this transition-process has been a surgical/hormonal/juridical manifest to state that "I define myself." Here where I live I am protected from discrimination by laws, so I am pretty free to live as I want. I haven't faced any discrimination in work-life or hobbies ever and my friends accept me as I am (haven't lost a single good friend because of my transitioning-process). Only bigger crap I've received is from my mother's side of family. Those religious hoots just can't accept people choosing their own path in this life. I know some people are reluctant to know me better because of my gender-identity (or the lack of it), and that's fine. I'm not interested in getting to know everyone either. But I get along with everyone and try to be respectful to everyone and I expect that from everyone aswell. In my experience the BDSM-scene can feel a bit un-welcoming to people with different gender identities or gender expression. The way I've reasoned it is that some elements in the scene revolve around the very traditional patriarchal and dicothomous gender-roles (alpha-men dominate submissive beta-women). And that's ok, to each their own. I can understand that not everyone is interested in TS/TG/CQ/Whatever people, but I would hope that people could still treat each other with respect and kindness, when not un-deserved. And in defense of the people who are not interested in TS/TG/CQ/whatever people, I think that part of the un-welcomigness is most likely due to the fears/prejudices that some trans-people themselves have about the scene or about cispeople (=one guilty person right here). The people I've met in local scenes have been fabulous - I've always felt welcome and their respectful and kind approach to new people helped me in part to get a grip of my own fears and oocasional cisphobia (with which I still work on). This might've went a bit off-topic,but just wanted to say that I'm happy to have BDSM as a part of my life and I'm equally or even more happy to have had a chance to meet many wonderful people through the scenes. heidiAnn

njlauren -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 3:05:30 PM)
Definitions of things like transvestite and crossdresser aren't that accurate to start with and definitions often are self defined labels and it often turns into a hierarchical thing (oh, that person, they are just a fetishist, whereas I am a crossdresser expressing my 'second half'). Transvestite used to cover the whole category, the cross dresser thing is a lot more recent. There are crossdressers, who spend a lot of time cross living/cross dressed, who also get a sexual thrill out of it to some extent, there are those who are crossdressers who simply feel more comfortable presenting as that; there are crossdressers who as men are as straight as an arrow and then when dressed, become a hypersexual 'girl' unleashing herself on men.....then there are crossdressers who are the same person pretty much dressed or 'en drab'. In my experience, it is not a small percentage of people who cross dress who are bisexual in some way (based on my own experience), I would hazard a guess that 40% of them at one time or the other take the plunge in terms of having sex with a man when dressed.....In terms of the label thing, I don't even know if the labels are important, if someone expresses something through cross dressing, they are what they are, and kind of like the hierarchical crap I have seen in the BD/SM world, it is just a distraction. I can understand why some people would get upset with the quote about the soul mattering first and so forth, that can be taken easily as, instead of a paen to be yourself and true to yourself, what often is thrown at trans folks who start seriously thinking about transitioning, and that is "okay, so you identify as trans, why can't you just accept yourself as transgender and live with it without doing anything?"...which for many id'ing as trans, that is like asking someone "okay, I understand why you want to have relationships with others, friends, spouses, mates, but why do you need to act on it? Why can't you just accept you need that and live with that?". Likewise, I have had (some misinformed, some just malicious) give me this crap like "well, suppose the world wore unisex clothing, where men and women looked the same, then there would be no reason to transition, would there"...which is ridiculous for obvious reasons, for people who transition (for the most part) it isn't about clothing, it is about identity...happens to be we have dichotomy between the genders in terms of appearence and so forth, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of our bodies and such and trying to be comfortable there..... Getting back to the quote in question, at first I thought it was denigrating the idea of trans folks doing what they do, but then I realized what they were saying was the first goal of someone should be happy with who they are:).

PeonForHer -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 3:14:06 PM)
Heidi, I've been dancing around this subject, trying to avoid getting too involved. The reason for this is that, even as an onlooker, it feels too painful. To be quite honest, I can't imagine anything much more terrible than to grow up feeling that one's body is 'of the wrong sex' - that it doesn't fit with one's fundamental feelings of oneself. It's an utter, complete sod. If I believed that there were a God, I'd want to head-butt the incompetent - or cruel - bastard. I'm beyond admiring of you transgendered people just for surviving. But I just hope you can get beyond that, to a dose of happiness, too. Because happiness is your birthright. It's everyone's birthright.

PeonForHer -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 3:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OttersSwim See now I took it as a religious view...so disregard my reply above please. Otters! You should know me better than that! I don't do religion. I'm not going to debate about religion here (or indeed, anywhere else, if I can avoid it). Just to say that, for me and my personal experience of religion, it was the antithesis of soul or of spirit. It wasn't there to make me feel 'spirited', or to 'nurture the soul'. It was there to do exactly the opposite. Re religion and being transgendered - well, frankly, until proponents of the various religions can pull their fingers out of their anuses and come up with something a little better than the tommyrot they've been purveying for hundreds of years on the matter of sexuality . . . they can piss off and educate themselves. Or meditate, or pray, or whatever else they feel they need to do in order to stop being quite so tediously primitive.

Cherylmazana -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 6:58:30 PM)
General reply I am glad I stumbled across this thread, it’s made me think and examine my own thoughts on the subject, and I think my problem is that I have never met anyone who has changed sex and who admits to it openly (that I know of) who I could take at first meeting as a woman I could get along with. To answer the questions about the two I knew I was 17 at the time and living with a bisexual man who had a lot of ties to the gay community. They were mid process both had breasts and were taking hormones but neither had the operation to change their genitals. They were living for a year or two as women before the psychologists would approve the op. One of them was a drag queen as her main job and the other was an office worker, it makes sense now after reading this thread that the reason their clothes and makeup was so over the top was because that was what the drag queen was comfortable with and she had most likely taught the other woman how to do makeup (It’s so long ago I can’t remember names, my long term memory for names has always been bad). While the drag queen looked stunning as a woman, her actions were way too camp she shouted gay man, and they were both so bitchy that it made it hard to reconcile what your eyes and instincts were saying as they were in conflict. The office worker looked like a man in a dress especially as she needed to shave a few times a day as she had very dark hair, probably the hormones cleared that up but at the time I knew them she looked like a he. The only others I have known have only been through various forums not face to face, and then mainly Gorean forums. And again the ones who openly admitted who they were seemed as if they had a permanent case of bad BMT. Women who have wild mood swings I tend to avoid like the plague anyway especially catty ones. I think we all tend to form impressions that stick, especially if those impressions have been reinforced by other events. Cheryl

hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 8:39:37 PM)
I agree with you Gwen... I cross-dressed for several years but did not identify with or as a transvestite. With one exception... and I think I may have shared this on CM about a year ago but what the hell, it's the Transgender Thread, I'll share it again. It's a doozy. It's a tangent, but has to do with cross-dressing... Back in SF (I think it was around 93) my former Master was an incredible woman who could do stunning high femme one night...and fierce butch the next. She was involved in an extremely serious motorcycle accident. The whole leatherdyke community rallied by her and took care of her affairs, nursing, you name it. She was re-admitted to the hospital for complications, and I knew she was feeling really down and needed a little lift. It was the night of a big women's play party, so I had a feeling that most of everybody was going to head to the party that night, leaving her alone in the hospital. So .... says me...I should do something..... special. Something to show her how much I care...something to really demonstrate that her comfort was more important than mine. And in my little reptilian brain, I decide....CROSSDRESSING....but as a woman! Don't ask me why I had it, but it was early enough in my youth that I left ONE female outfit in my closet. Picture this: a black leather mini-skirt, little black go-go boots (with fringe, no less), an oversized women's fashion belt with little studs and rivets, and the crown jewel..... a bright red mid-length jacket full of zippers a la Michael Jackson's era. Yes. It was hideous. I walked to the Castro and bought a pair of black fishnets, forgetting one important detail about pantyhose.... you have to shave your legs first. My legs in those hose looked like a pair of cactus. Well, THAT was a problem. I didn't own a razor, and even if I did....I hadn't a clue how to shave my legs. So me being a clever butch dyke, I took the clippers I used to shave my mohawk, and voila! instant shaved legs. A few clip-on earrings fromWalgreens (it was san fran, after all)...and I head off to the hospital on the Muni (metro train). Now mind you, I'm EXTREMELY self-conscious, because on the surface, I don't really "look" cross-dressed. I mean, I was female, so wearing women's clothing shouldn't have been a big deal. But to me, it seemed like the whole damn train was staring at me, somehow knowing that I was cross-dressed and that it was absolutely humiliating for me. In truth, it wasn't my imagination. Two gay men boarded the train, and kept whispering to each other and giggling. Mini-skirt or not, I was still a butch, and I walked up to the two of them, got in their faces, and said, "What's yer problem? Ain't ya ever seen a cross-dresser before? It's san francisco forchrissake!" They replied, "Oh, honey, we seen plenty in our time. But you are an absolute 80's nightmare! Whoever this is for, I hope she's worth it. Work it, girl!" Sigh. Critiqued by snap queens, my humiliation was nearly complete. I head up to her unit, and find out she's being "walked" with her IV pole...the nurse invited me to wait at the charge nurse's desk. As she rounds the corner and approaches me, I see her looking down at my boots, and then I followed her eyes as she worked her way up my legs (I used to have great legs, by the way) and then eventually, to my face. When she realized it was me, she literally clutched her chest and almost fell backwards, the nurse catching her and yelling for help as she thought her patient was in distress. When N. started laughing, the nurses all turned to look at me...as she choked out the words: "Oh my god.... I don't know what drugs you guys gave me...but they are working! You would NOT believe the hallucination that I'm having" She tried to explain to the nurses why she reacted so, the nurses commented, "this explains a lot actually...we really couldn't figure out what she...wait...he...wait... uh...what your... friend... was dressed up as..." In the end, she was very touched (esp by the leg shaving), and I was just glad no one I knew saw me. The whole outfit was quite fittingly, donated to my nextdoor neighbor, an adorable, slim, short crossdresser who informed me the week after that my skirt got him laid, which is certainly more than it ever did for me. Taking the train home that night, dressed like that, was one of the scariest experiences I ever had in that city...

peachgirl -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 8:44:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Heidi, I've been dancing around this subject, trying to avoid getting too involved. The reason for this is that, even as an onlooker, it feels too painful. To be quite honest, I can't imagine anything much more terrible than to grow up feeling that one's body is 'of the wrong sex' - that it doesn't fit with one's fundamental feelings of oneself. It's an utter, complete sod. If I believed that there were a God, I'd want to head-butt the incompetent - or cruel - bastard. I'm beyond admiring of you transgendered people just for surviving. But I just hope you can get beyond that, to a dose of happiness, too. Because happiness is your birthright. It's everyone's birthright. I'm so glad you brought this up, it's my feeling as well. I've always felt that being TG must be one of the most difficult roads in life possible.

hausboy -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 8:49:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peachgirl quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Heidi, I've been dancing around this subject, trying to avoid getting too involved. The reason for this is that, even as an onlooker, it feels too painful. To be quite honest, I can't imagine anything much more terrible than to grow up feeling that one's body is 'of the wrong sex' - that it doesn't fit with one's fundamental feelings of oneself. It's an utter, complete sod. If I believed that there were a God, I'd want to head-butt the incompetent - or cruel - bastard. I'm beyond admiring of you transgendered people just for surviving. But I just hope you can get beyond that, to a dose of happiness, too. Because happiness is your birthright. It's everyone's birthright. I'm so glad you brought this up, it's my feeling as well. I've always felt that being TG must be one of the most difficult roads in life possible. Hey Peach and Peon... For the longest time, I was truly convinced that I must have been a big, huge horrible mean misogynist homophobic straight biker in my previous life, and that I must have been such a bad person, that the universe sentenced me to come back as a short queer boy-chick who was too short to get a Harley... in order to punish...and enlighten me. My Buddhist friend told me that she believed a lesson in life was repeated until it was learned, and that perhaps if I could get the life lessons, that next time I would come back as my true form. I kinda hope so. This time around on the karma wheel was chock full of some rough life lessons.

MrBukani -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 9:30:00 PM)
Androgynous men were highly revered in some ancient tribal societies. Some even chose them to be their shamans. Because they thought a person inbetween man and woman could travel more easy into spiritual world.

missygwen -> RE: The Transgender Thread (11/22/2011 10:09:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer To be quite honest, I can't imagine anything much more terrible than to grow up feeling that one's body is 'of the wrong sex' - that it doesn't fit with one's fundamental feelings of oneself. It's an utter, complete sod. If I believed that there were a God, I'd want to head-butt the incompetent - or cruel - bastard. I'm beyond admiring of you transgendered people just for surviving. But I just hope you can get beyond that, to a dose of happiness, too. Because happiness is your birthright. It's everyone's birthright. Not to disagree with this one bit, but I would add there are plenty of people whose body-images don't really fit the person they believe they are inside, and not all of them are transgendered. I try to bear this in mind when I'm busy being envious of some gorgeous and prettily-dressed young thing on the street who I can never be...there are lots of women who are jealous of her, too. It's not the same exactly, but it is worth bearing in mind, that just being the other gender in itself doesn't make everything perfect.

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