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RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 2:23:57 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting.

The Tea Party is essentially a wing of the GOP.  Ideologically, they are against "big government" and especially out-of-control, government spending.  They have so far worked entirely through the political process.

OWS is a bunch of protesters.  They are getting press and some sympathy.  Ideologically, they are against government influence of the lobbyists, banksters, and wealthy.

Their agendas are not that dissimilar.  They both arise from a feeling of powerlessness, of getting screwed.  But their modi operandi are very different.  If they joined forces in some way, they could become much more effective by combining approaches.


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RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 2:38:40 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

I think it's sort of nice you are apparently no longer cherry picking the movement


I never have...if you go back and read my posts you will find I have been consistent in my criticisms from the very beginning. A strong movement should be able to, not only take criticisms, but look at them closely and see if there is truth in them.

I have always seen an important movement whose leadership is going in the wrong direction to succeed. I am not so arrogant as to believe what I say will change anything but I will continue to point out mistakes as I see them. But.. I believe you would be better served to heed them. My name is Butch S. Majority and the way I go the nation goes as well…lol…at least it has since I’ve been of voting age in 1968.

I know one day I will be wrong and it would not hurt my feelings if it were over OWS.

I have been very politically active over my life although mostly with environment and health initiatives. I do think this is a worthy movement and I want it to succeed but I feel it is being wasted by poor leadership and the lack of specific goals.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/19/2011 2:53:06 PM >

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RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 7:10:40 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Interesting.

The Tea Party ... Ideologically, they are against "big government" and especially out-of-control, government spending.  They have so far worked entirely through the political process.

OWS is a bunch of protesters.  They are getting press and some sympathy.  Ideologically, they are against government influence of the lobbyists, banksters, and wealthy.

Their agendas are not that dissimilar.  They both arise from a feeling of powerlessness, of getting screwed.  But their modi operandi are very different.  If they joined forces in some way, they could become much more effective by combining approaches.

I agree, but also believe that they won't, and the majority of the reason is the unthinking hatred that the OWS towards any type of authority, or that a majority of the OWS movement has for anyone that they consider "conservative".

Look at the hatred and animosity toward Palin, in my "Can You Guess Without Googling?" thread, when she simply stated almost exactly what appears to be the major OWS line of thought. It appears that the posters here who support OWS would rather insult her and alienate her and her supporters, rather than attempt to find common ground.  She's "not pure enough" ideologically for them, it seems.

Look at HillWilliams "TEA and OWS have a meeting" thread, where a Memphis tea party group invited OWS reps to meet with them.  I've read TEA partiers blogs, where they've went to OWS protest and engaged in conversation, and encouraged other TEA partiers to do the same, to see if they could work the common ground.  Seen any results, except venom from OWS to the TEA parties?

And you do not see anything going the other direction (OWS seeking out common ground with the TEA party).  Eventually not many members of the TEA parties will have anything to do with OWS. And I won't blame them, either.

It's just a damn shame, though.

Firm


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RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 7:15:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

So, as a "protest movement", how is OWS going to change things?

BION,they`re not there to "change" anything.
...

They are expressing frustration at the parts of government and business that failed.

It's just a primal scream of anger in the dark?

That sounds like it will be effective.

No, what is likely going to happen is either it will just melt away, with a few groups here and there continuing to claim the mantle, or someone or some group will coop the name and anger for more direct political purposes.  Not necessarily non-violent ones.

Firm


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RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 7:19:08 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

And I also think that sure as Firm wishes to promote there ARE increrasing ATTEMPTS to paint the movement in a bad light. he's just mistaken about the effectiveness it's had.. unless he's speaking about matters local.

I'm not promoting anything, but making observations about the media coverage of the movement.

I don't have an agenda in this.  Yet, anyway.  I am saddened by the fact that it doesn't appear that what could come out of it will, and what will most likely come out of it might not be what is healthy or helpful to our nation.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 7:52:09 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		That little bit of dichotomy is getting noted even by international commentators.

Much the OWS platform is actually pretty much in line with what is considered "national socialistic" thought but the lumpen imagine they are "left-wing" and thus enemies of what they imagine the "right" thinks.

So we see such interesting things as David Duke and the American Nazis, border militias and white supremacists endorsing OWS, while the corporate democrats distancing themselves.

Actually the party plank for various U.S. and Canadian "national socialist" groups and what has come out of the OWS are remarkably similar, once you strip the racial aspects out of the white power groups ideals.

quote:

In its statement on Sunday, the Westland, Mich.-based Nazi party wrote that the Occupy Wall Street protests are “TAYLOR [sic] MADE for National Socialists, as well as WN [White Nationalists] who are serious about DOING SOMETHING.” “I urgently URGE all of you,” the statement’s unnamed author added, “to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers EXPLAINING the ‘JEW BANKER’ influence — DON’T wear anything marking you as an ‘evil racist’ — and GET OUT THERE and SPREAD the WORD

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/red-white-and-angry%e2%80%a8-communist-nazi-parties-endorse-occupy-protests/#ixzz1eDHOcTzc


Is a sample, though there are plenty more.

So we see such interesting things as - Border militia groups

showing up as interested veterans while their leaders look a bit different  in pictures taken of them at other evensts -



This populist OWS movement will likely have a lot more strange bedfellows before it run's it's course. Even the Adbusters people behind this have a number of noted anti-Jewish worthies among their ranks, of which the conspiracy wonks are having fun with, along with Soros funding and every other sort of thing.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 8:20:54 PM   
OCDsCPL


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Why do they have to a-line themselves with anyone?


Duverger's law and a follow up PhD thesis that shows mathematically that the probability of any party outside of the two major parties in a plurality system gaining signficant power without using one of those parties as a host is miniscule.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 8:26:06 PM   
OCDsCPL


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/14/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

That little bit of dichotomy is getting noted even by international commentators.

Much the OWS platform is actually pretty much in line with what is considered "national socialistic" thought but the lumpen imagine they are "left-wing" and thus enemies of what they imagine the "right" thinks.

So we see such interesting things as David Duke and the American Nazis, border militias and white supremacists endorsing OWS, while the corporate democrats distancing themselves.

Actually the party plank for various U.S. and Canadian "national socialist" groups and what has come out of the OWS are remarkably similar, once you strip the racial aspects out of the white power groups ideals.

quote:

In its statement on Sunday, the Westland, Mich.-based Nazi party wrote that the Occupy Wall Street protests are “TAYLOR [sic] MADE for National Socialists, as well as WN [White Nationalists] who are serious about DOING SOMETHING.” “I urgently URGE all of you,” the statement’s unnamed author added, “to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers EXPLAINING the ‘JEW BANKER’ influence — DON’T wear anything marking you as an ‘evil racist’ — and GET OUT THERE and SPREAD the WORD

http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/red-white-and-angry%e2%80%a8-communist-nazi-parties-endorse-occupy-protests/#ixzz1eDHOcTzc


Is a sample, though there are plenty more.

So we see such interesting things as - Border militia groups

showing up as interested veterans while their leaders look a bit different  in pictures taken of them at other evensts -



This populist OWS movement will likely have a lot more strange bedfellows before it run's it's course. Even the Adbusters people behind this have a number of noted anti-Jewish worthies among their ranks, of which the conspiracy wonks are having fun with, along with Soros funding and every other sort of thing.



Thats why "left-right" is far too simplistic and the political compass makes more sense. National socialists can fall at north by northwest or north by northeast, depending on whether their particular emphasis is on socialism or nationalism.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 8:32:40 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		True, since "right" and "left" or "liberal" and "conservative" are now meaningless terms as the enduser defines them as they please these days.

But then just which of the two major political parties do you think the OWS movement would take control of under this "Duverger's law" theory?

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 8:39:58 PM   
OCDsCPL


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker

True, since "right" and "left" or "liberal" and "conservative" are now meaningless terms as the enduser defines them as they please these days.

But then just which of the two major political parties do you think the OWS movement would take control of under this "Duverger's law" theory?



Ask them.. though its not that they take control of them. They use the established party's organizations and party name to promote their own candidates. The Tea Party did it using the GOP, so the Occupy movement would be more likely to use the Dems even though a lot of their issues are the same.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 8:46:51 PM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		Well, they are falling short of going anywhere at this point then, as the Democratic corporate arm isn't going to cut their own throats and let this happen..

Not that they would go further with the Chamber of Commerce arm of the GOP.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 9:42:30 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I thought the movement was supposed to be apolitical ..at least in reference to party. And open to all ideals that share the wealth. Why start talking about republicans and tea party members as being limited to what you think relevant to the movement? Who the hell are you?


Real simple we are, and they don't get it. Don't give me shit for what other people attribute to our movement and in turn act badly.

And by apolitical, do you mean we won't use an electoral process or tell DC to fix itself or get the fuck out?
Because we haven't ruled out that option. And it's not exactly any source of shame if we can fix what isn't working.


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 9:45:28 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I thought the movement was supposed to be apolitical ..at least in reference to party. And open to all ideals that share the wealth. Why start talking about republicans and tea party members as being limited to what you think relevant to the movement? Who the hell are you?
Butch
I think it is a recognition, as I said above, that the only way OWS will ever have any meaningful impact is to align itself with one of the two parties.


Here's where your perceptual error comes from... you guys have this destination all picked out. I'd have quoted the rest but it's just a post-midlife crisis playing itself out ... and it's kind of tragic


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 9:46:49 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I'm not promoting anything, but making observations about the media coverage of the movement.


Okay, if you say so.



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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 9:55:21 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

hat little bit of dichotomy is getting noted even by international commentators.

Much the OWS platform is actually pretty much in line with what is considered "national socialistic" thought but the lumpen imagine they are "left-wing" and thus enemies of what they imagine the "right" thinks.

So we see such interesting things as David Duke and the American Nazis, border militias and white supremacists endorsing OWS, while the corporate democrats distancing themselves.

Actually the party plank for various U.S. and Canadian "national socialist" groups and what has come out of the OWS are remarkably similar, once you strip the racial aspects out of the white power groups ideals.


What a load... Daily facist isn't a news source or are we forgetting their phonying up of the fallen women video.

And it's funny coming from a kid who casts every racial and ethnic slur but n*gger around these parts. All of a sudden it 'concerns' you.

< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 11/19/2011 9:56:06 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 11:23:10 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

Interesting.

The Tea Party is essentially a wing of the GOP. Ideologically, they are against "big government" and especially out-of-control, government spending. They have so far worked entirely through the political process.

OWS is a bunch of protesters. They are getting press and some sympathy. Ideologically, they are against government influence of the lobbyists, banksters, and wealthy.


Steven... this is part of another post ... but I thought this would fit in nicely with your analysis...


http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/CLGF-msnbc.pdf




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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 11:34:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

I'm not promoting anything, but making observations about the media coverage of the movement.


Okay, if you say so.

*sigh*

Stern, have you seen me trash OWS anywhere?

The worst you can find is when I posted a blog story, in order to highlight how someone can fuel their own prejudices by quoting anything - something - on the net, when someone (tazzy?) tried to make hay about some Facebook posts talking about doing illegal shit, and threw it on the Republicans.  Like 4 or 8 people out of 300 million is representative.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/19/2011 11:52:30 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

The worst you can find is when I posted a blog story, in order to highlight how someone can fuel their own prejudices by quoting anything - something - on the net, when someone (tazzy?) tr0 ied to make hay about some Facebook posts talking about doing illegal shit, and threw it on the Republicans. Like 4 or 8 people out of 30million is representative.


Dude,  by 'promoting' I was this analysis you offer which I think many will argue is well weak, if not faulty, but it sounds like promotion when you cite those items and offer the analysis you did.
If you feel slighted I apologize. My remark of  "if you say so", was meant to basically convey we can go our separate ways with out much grief on this issue.

I happen to know many of the minor incidents are not only inflated, but definitely slanted a certain way and at the same time know that support is anything but dwindling for the movement.
   Perfect example was the other night when they raided Liberty Plaza... up the street at the baracades they set up there were not a bunch but rather thousands of New Yorkers who came in from neighborhoods all over manhattan in response to hearing on WBAI that Liberty park was under attack. These are people who aren't what you would call "OWS Activists" they were people like me and you. Who heard it on the radio or got a call from a friend and left their homes at 2 in the morning and went into the streets.
    But you're entitled to your opinion. I wouldn't dream of denying you that.



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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/20/2011 1:14:05 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-memphis-tea-party-members-meet-084306417.html

They find more common ground than you would expect.


You think?

From your link:

Pete Dresser, 68 and retired, said the meeting confirmed what he believed about the Occupy movement."It's a ramshackle movement that is not organized, not focused and more emotional than purposeful," Dresser said.

Can anyone explain to me the focus and purposefulness of the teabaggers?

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: TEA and OWS have a meeting - 11/20/2011 1:25:52 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

I found this kind of funny

Pete Dresser, 68 and retired, said the meeting confirmed what he believed about the Occupy movement.

"It's a ramshackle movement that is not organized, not focused and more emotional than purposeful," Dresser said.


It's funny only because Dresser will be dead soon.




"not organized, not focused and more emotional than purposeful"

Not sure if the Ts realize this or not but that`s the beauty part,not the down side.


Those are the very qualities that make OWS authentic and genuine.





and utterly meaningless


Just like every one-line post you make that is not only meaningless but often barely understandable.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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